Teachers: do you find it hard? (high school toilets)

You can go on a plane other than take off and landing. I've always been able to go on a plane as has everyone I know . Also like I said a coach journey is a very occasional thing, and normally all kids can go and do before. I wasn't saying to stop every 10 minutes, I was just saying (rightly or wrongly), there were some time on a coach where whilst moving someone did use the toliet, only if they felt the couldn't hold it for much longer - but as you said that shouldn't be best practice, but also doesn't really apply to many other situations. A kid may be able to hold it once in a while but doing it regularly as any urologist will tell you, can cause UTIs and isn’t good for anyone if you do it regularly, not on a one-off occasional trip. So either kids will be in that situation or they'll reduce how much they drink and in some cases some children are getting so anxious over this, they aren't having any water at all, which is ridiculous.
Also funny you haven't addressed any of the other points which I brought up, and that are more important and regular than toliet use on a coach. I have never in any of posts mentioned human rights, I said suffering once in relation to the things I was talking about with periods, absences and anxiety and embarrassment and fear. I also mentioned advice and some of the research from other organisations, a few bowel and bladder organisations, one for Plan UK and the rest was research. On a trip if a kid was desperate and couldn't hold it, I think most teachers would stop the coach, most are not going to kick up that much of a fuss around it or let themselves get that bothered over it. A few times on trips I went to there was sometimes someone who needed to really go, and we stopped, it wasn't that big of a deal.

You cannot always go on a plane - if the seatbelt sign is on then you sit down and deal with it. Rules are rules. Yes some do allow kids to go on coaches but those are parents letting their own kids take their belts off and go. In schools there is no wiggle room at all. Children have belts on the whole journey - no ifs or buts. When you have seen a child fly out of a coach along a motorway and die (and being the only one without a belt on when the bus crashed) when that happened then you would not do it again. Not that is isn't best practice it is not allowed full stop. What are the other things you 'brought up' that are funny. Yes a coach would stop but you know what kids do when they see someone getting to do something that is a novelty - they all want to do it too! That would mean allowing many to go at the same time many of whom will not want to go. You have clearly never seen kids who think the novelty of going for a piss on a coach as being 'a thing' meaning many will just go when the coach is stopped for shits and giggles. Meaning a stop can last at least an hour in some situations. How come all the others who cannot hold their piss longer than 5 seconds suddenly can on a coach?

Periods on a coach - same thing happens as for all on a coach - including adults. They can go to the toilet before and ask the coach to stop but stopping every ten minutes is really not adequate for a school trip as that is how often kids ask in the classroom so replicate that into a coach and a 2 hour journey will take about 5!

It is a wonder anyone ever leaves the house these days - how do such kids even go on walks or into town without having their emotional support
toilet being carried with them at all times.

And no, not funny about me missing things off - when I post on my phone I then cannot read your comment. I cannot remember it all in my head. By all means post those 'funny' things again for me to respond to. Be funny that you get a response when you are implying that I am not doing it on purpose.

@VexedofVirginiaWater, I get what you’re saying, even without vandalism or bullying well behaved kids can still affect the lesson when they go out. I don’t have perfect solutions, but these are my initial thoughts which would need editing in practice.

If it bothers your lessons that much, then make them catch up. Say if it isn’t done by next lesson they'll be treated as not doing homework and have those consequences. This would invovle havinf resources available on some platform (pretty standard now), and they can ask their friends kr classmates or find you at lunch if they really don't understand. When I was in school we were expected to catch up and weren’t punished if we didn’t, but we were made 'responsible' for it showing up later in mocks or tests and not understanding or doing well because we didn't catch up. I’m not saying that’s what you should do, parents might not like it and may complain, but it worked in GCSE years.

Something I didn’t like at first but think could work is someone saying their school sends a message home when they leave, with the expectation they catch up before the next lesson. If they miss a slide or notes, it becomes homework with the same consequences - if they don't get it done in the lesson. You could remind them before they go, are you sure you want to miss x, could you not wait 5 minutes as its very important for the whole lesson. Five minutes shouldn’t be that much work to catch up on.

I’d say don’t always say yes straight away unless it’s urgent like periods, medical reasons or they really can’t wait. I'm against 100% bans bar medical passes, or similar things. Most teachers already say wait when something important is being explained for 5 minutes, then go. In my secondary school, (mainly Y10/11), my teachers would say no to kids they suspected of chancing it, especially if they had a pattern of wandering for half an hour or disrupting lessons. They’d tell them they had to wait until someone could escort them (took 2-4 mins max), unless it was a girl on her period or a medical condition. It wasn’t everyone, just repeat offenders of issues like walking around or vaping in toliets. After a while they gave up complaining that but x can go (teachers would say they come back and haven't misbehaved in the toliets etc), and when they behaved better over time (report etc) they would be allowed to go by themselves again. Parents didn’t complain too much and SLT were fair (with other things in general) and explained that they still let them go, just with escorts, and stuck with the policy.

The bigger issue is going between lessons, which would need longer term changes like more toilets nearby (when schools are being built and obviously more funding as well) and longer gaps between lessons. It always seemed like you’d finish in English and then have to get to Geography on the opposite side of the school, and a toilet stop made you late. In my 6th form, lessons started and ended at ten past (for secondary), which wasn’t helpful. Five minutes isn’t usually enough, especially if one class ends late. My old secondary eventually, had different teachers do different routes around the school and time them and made it seven minutes which was much better. We were also allowed to leave a minute or two early while everyone else packed up if we wanted to get to the toilet quickly.

@JumpingAnt Sorry my earlier thoughts wouldn’t apply to you then, I assumed you were a surgeon or scrub nurse, for some reason. I’m also sorry you had to go through bleeding during a miscarriage and were expected to just deal with it. If you’re self-employed, is it that you rent a room and are fully responsible for yourself and your earnings? You’re right, it isn’t only teaching, but I think it isn't allowed/possible in around the same amount of jobs where it is possible. Surgeons only hold it in for the long operations where they plan swaps, and I’ve been on a couple buses that had toilets, which I think we’ll see more of over time (when we finally invest in transport). Getting stuck on the tube for an hour and a half hopefully isn’t common, and usually journeys are shorter or with quick changes - so you can quickly use it in the station, and then grab the next tube. I think Moose was talking about the being stuck on the tube as rare.

What do you do out of interest, nurse or doctor? I’d say unless you’re in stroke team, ED, or in the middle of a life or death case like heart attack or doing a procedure, most staff can go. They might rush, but they can, if it was getting urgent. If people are reprimanded or can’t go at all, that feels like NHS culture of overworking and never taking breaks, not always staff choice but shortages forcing it. Even then, they'll be jobs it isn't possible for, but I’d guess it’s because the work is life or death or safety related of the patients. That’s not the same as students missing five minutes of a lesson. So if you can go when it’s urgent, even if not ideal timing, that’s the same principle I’d use for students. If you really couldn’t go unless in an emergency, then that’s still a very different level of responsibility compared to kids in lessons. I don’t think letting them go during school would stop them adapting later when the reasons in work are so different and often much more serious.

I have to wait to go to the loo every single day I’m at work and treating patients. Every single person at my work place needs to wait until an appropriate time to use the loo. Sometimes this involves waiting an hour or so. This is neither rare or outlandish.

And we are now into the territory of certifiable weirdos invoking outlandish scenarios and rare events to justify keeping children from the toilet on an everyday basis. Which is ultimately what every thread on toilet- related topics turns into.

The workplace is also changing as well, not sure when that happened to you, but more policies making it easier for pregnant doctors and mothers as well. For example a hospital I knew now let ENT trainees to leave during the day for pick-up etc, sometimes they'd leave surgery and someone would come and swap (needed quite good rota planning but still).

I am a self employed hygienist so workplace policies make zero difference to me. If I don’t work I don’t get paid. So if I took time off for my miscarriage I would lose money. If I blocked out gaps in my diary for loo breaks I’d lose money. (And would likely get fired as they obviously would want a clinician who brings money in).

Also planning for a scheduled swap over during a long surgery is different from a surgeon deciding he needs a wee half way through a surgery. He would go to the loo before he started. And that was my point. If you go to the loo before you start something, whether it’s a lesson at school or a heart surgery, then you shouldn’t need to go again half an hour later. And I do know a surgeon is different to other jobs. But the person I was responding to said the teacher said you can’t always go to the loo when you want at work. And she said you can! I was just pointing out that there are plenty of jobs where actually you can’t. I didn’t say all of them. But it is true that some of these children will grow up and want to do a job where you can’t access a loo totally on demand.

And no tube trains in London have toilets (and I specifically said tube not train). Or any of the buses I’ve been on recently. And I’ve been stuck for an hour on a tube in a tunnel in the past.

On reference to the fight/jumping, if that did happen, students would have had to communicate with each other in the moment. That's why it's different to knowing when the person gets x bus, so we'll find them and attack them there. Or we have P.E together or something like that. In a class, they're counting or betting on her getting up and asking to go, so it was either a plan of whenever we can or opportunistic and random. In either case, they would have needed to message each other that she's gone, you need to ask. As I said a kid, on their phone, who then asks to go the toliet (even within the next 10 minites) shouldn't be allowed to go, and if you think you may get a complaint etc from a parent, I'd be calling another member of staff on duty, and explaining your suspicions as well as handing in their phone as they were on it. I would properly check after or alert HOY etc as to whether they were messaging for a serious issue (doesn't make it okay and phone should still be taken away in the moment, but schools don't know everything that's going on for a student and could get it wrong). Likely that if this happened in a few other classrooms and the phone behaviour was dealt with as above, then I think whoever was on duty may be noting a pattern with the group of students and start further investigation. That is an issue with phones and also situational judgement, is my point related to how that girl got attacked.

The only way this wouldn't work is if they all someone had some sense she went to the toliet, and all went at the same time from different places in the school. That I can't help with but highly doubt would happen.

I don't know any schools that even have enough space for 60 students. That's why in my other posts I mentioned that more toliets (for the future and with more funding) need to built and need to be more central to each block etc, depending on the school layout. I also am saying that the policy would be within a class, one person let out at once but only that the toliets would all be individual rooms completely, and the locks (similar with radar keys) don't open when someone is in there. This was my idealistic solution with more money etc, and there would be more individual toliets for each corridor or area, depending on each school layout. So they wouldn't all be going to the same toliet, even now I don't think all 60 (unless planning a protest or massive riot), would go to the same toliet even if it wasn't the system I said and it happened with what most schools have right now.

All trains (new or old) have toliets as do some of the newer buses. Plus even if they didn't that doesn't mean it's a good thing and shouldn't be changed. Surgeons can leave to go to the toliet, in some cases, and normally for longer surgeries, they'll take a break and switch over or even just a reg or something stay in and hold things over for a few minutes. Obviously not if someone's deteriorating or something key needs to be done. The workplace is also changing as well, not sure when that happened to you, but more policies making it easier for pregnant doctors and mothers as well. For example a hospital I knew now let ENT trainees to leave during the day for pick-up etc, sometimes they'd leave surgery and someone would come and swap (needed quite good rota planning but still).

Again surgery is a very different job, so it shouldn't be equated to school for students necessarily. I know you're not saying this but to the wider point of toliet restriction etc. Yes there are jobs that can't always go immediately. But a taxi driver can spot when they need to go and likely stop somewhere before they pick up a passenger or they'll do it straight after they drop them. If it's actually a very long journey, I don't think many people would mind if they asked to stop and quickly go

You can go on a plane other than take off and landing. I've always been able to go on a plane as has everyone I know @Fetaface. Also like I said a coach journey is a very occasional thing, and normally all kids can go and do before. I wasn't saying to stop every 10 minutes, I was just saying (rightly or wrongly), there were some time on a coach where whilst moving someone did use the toliet, only if they felt the couldn't hold it for much longer - but as you said that shouldn't be best practice, but also doesn't really apply to many other situations. A kid may be able to hold it once in a while but doing it regularly as any urologist will tell you, can cause UTIs and isn’t good for anyone if you do it regularly, not on a one-off occasional trip. So either kids will be in that situation or they'll reduce how much they drink and in some cases some children are getting so anxious over this, they aren't having any water at all, which is ridiculous.

Also funny you haven't addressed any of the other points which I brought up, and that are more important and regular than toliet use on a coach. I have never in any of posts mentioned human rights, I said suffering once in relation to the things I was talking about with periods, absences and anxiety and embarrassment and fear. I also mentioned advice and some of the research from other organisations, a few bowel and bladder organisations, one for Plan UK and the rest was research. On a trip if a kid was desperate and couldn't hold it, I think most teachers would stop the coach, most are not going to kick up that much of a fuss around it or let themselves get that bothered over it. A few times on trips I went to there was sometimes someone who needed to really go, and we stopped, it wasn't that big of a deal.

I find it hard to describe the disruption that can be caused by several otherwise relatively well-behaved kids going out of class to the toilet. I think you might have to experience it - and not just as a one-off - to understand.

You start your lesson explaining what's going to happen, Jenny comes in because she has been to the toilet en route (very reasonable you'd think), so you have to start again. Then because Jenny has mentioned the toilet, it puts it in the heads of a couple of others. One goes out, then the other, they have missed another piece, or else it means they have not completed a task which they need to carry on.

Multiply this by - well a few - and it's not just the toilet-goers who are missing five minutes, but the whole class is losing learning time, unless I can devise a lesson where they are all working independently for the whole time which is maybe possible with some subjects, I don't know, but I suspect it won't be possible every lesson. And these are reasonable well-behaved children who are just exercising their human right to go to the toilet. Then of course there will always be the chancers who don't really need it and are in fact in search of trouble. You know they are chancers, but obviously you can't say anything - you have let Jenny and the others go you see and it is their human right and parents would make a complaint. So you let them go too.

I'm retired now, and over a longish career, I dread to think how much teaching and learning time was wasted by toilet going (and not mine!)

One let out of each classroom would mean 60 children walking around a secondary school, plenty for a fight.

Not let them piss themselves!

You cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Many teachers and schools say that toliet access can only happen at break and lunch because it has to be supervised to stop vandalism, or bullying or the safeguarding causes. So it's clearly just finding reasons to prevent toliet use at this point. A kid doing that will miss 5 minutes, max 10, there are much bigger issues going on in schools and kids' lives. Since so many schools now log it, you'll be able to see if it's getting to point where either they have something else going on, maybe a developing medical issue, safeguarding perhaps or just boredom, then conversations can be had. And even if it's the same few people at the toliets and they log it instead of teachers they'll catch up if it's the same kid constantly.

Also even if you have a system where someone has to go to the office then to the toliet, they may still have a bored long walk around school. They're probably more likely to take the longest trip to the office and on the way back (if they have to go back to return the key). That probably takes longer than the time in toliet itself. Kids who ask to go just because they want to walk around ec would probably love that system, because they could spend ages and say oh the office lady took a while to give it to me etc and the teacher wouldn't be able to know if that was true or not. They'd probably take a route to try and see their friends and wave or whatever as well.

@KindLemur I know how fights and attacks are organised. What I mean for that specific scenario was how did they all manage to get out at once and know that the girl was also going to the toliet. We're they all in the same class (or quite a few of them)? In that case, as it normally is, it should only be 1 let out at a time. If she left the class to go to the toliet, nobody else should have been able to go, until she got back. If they were all in different classroom, and they messaged each other when she went in, it's still the same issue as likely someone from her class also went, so why were they allowed? Plus, that reaction to phone use is on the teacher, a kid is repeatedly always having a good emotional reason and you don't suspect anything? Most schools and teachers I know will take it immediately and they can check at the end of lesson or during break etc if its true or not. Plus your mum messaging isn't a good enough reason (unless specific issues already known about). Also if a kid was just on their phone, I think thats a red flag to not let them go the toliet when they ask pretty soon after (unless medicial reasons). Or call another member of staff as you have suspicious and they were on their phone already, so can get in trouble just for that. Also even if you do that, yes great you prevented it happening in the toliet, it will happen at the park, or the school corridor or playground or whatever. It doesn't stop the issue just stops it happening in that place.

No coach can stop every 10 minutes at all. If they stop once then all go and then get on usually after about 2 hours. Proving that kids can in fact hold it when they want to and can go before when they know they cannot go for a while. Also on a flight no you cannot always go if the seat belt sign is on the you must stay seated. Not rocket science. I am proving to you that kids can go to the toilet ahead of time when it matters. Those that demand instant access must also say no to their child going on a trip. Doesn't matter that it isnt every day. If a child needs instant access then the trip is not for them. Odd you admit they can do it when it matters and never can do it when it doesnt. Simple stop the trips. Weird you say they should be expected to hold it when it matters. Isnt that cruelty and against their human rights?! So ban trips.

It depends on the job though. The teachers who are saying it often can’t go when they want. I work in medical/dental and I can’t just get up and go half way through treating a patient. A surgeon couldn’t just down tools half way through a heart transplant to have a wee. There are actually a lot of jobs where you can’t just get up and do what you want when you want. I actually got moaned at by a patient the other day because I stopped treatment to turn away and sneeze. And I can’t tell you how hard it is to ignore an itch when you’re half way through a treatment and you can’t easily start taking gloves off to scratch it. I also once bled through my trousers during a miscarriage when I was treating a patient. One of those things unfortunately. I had to wait until they left to clean up. Then I ran late because I had to get changed etc. And then the next patient complained because I was running late.

Im not saying no children should be allowed to go to the toilet obviously. Just that it’s not the case that as adults you can just wander about doing what you want all the time. Emergencies yes. But honestly waiting half an hour to use the loo shouldn’t be a huge deal in normal circumstances. What would they do if they were on a bus or tube with no toilets etc? Sometimes you just need to wait. (Again I’m not talking about emergencies).

Re your last point, kids will message each other on Snapchat usually to plan these things during the school day. If challenged on their phone use they will say their mum has messaged them or something or say they are just checking their phone cause their nan is ill. And you then feel like a terrible person for doubting that.

It would !
but so many parents push back against that. They say their child needs their phone at all times.

Not the only one.

Drivers of busses, delivery vans and taxis can't just go.

After I left school I worked in a catalogue place picking orders, we only got a break when a supervisor took over, the supervisor would walk down the conveyer belt taking over one at a time.

It's not easy to step out of an operating theatre or a cath lab mid procedure.

And it still wouldn't solve the problem of the constant disruption of lessons by children who don't need the toilet but just fancy a bit of a break - even if they don't intend misbehaving or vandalising anything. And ime it would be constant.

On the other hand, some parents do go too far. Teachers deal with parents shouting at them, denying obvious behaviour even when there’s proof, or saying detentions for fighting or not doing homework (without a good reason) are unfair. That wears teachersdown. The truth is parents don’t trust schools anymore. That started with real problems like poor pastoral care or unfair policies, but it’s gonefurther now. Parents reject almost everything schoolsaybecause they don’t believe they have their child’s best interests at heart. They see school's as only caring about grades, and parents feel they’re left to fight for their kids alone, many times the issues which slowly built distrust are fair ones, but then it spreads to unfair ones.

Fines are a good example of one way this problem has developed it is. They make sense for the tiny number of parents who let their kids miss school with no reason, persistently, but if it is a kid pulling a sickie, that rarely turn persistent. But most absencesare EBSA, undiagnosed SEN, bullying, racism, misogyny, mental health, or poverty and fines don't help this (I know this is government policy and LA's). For years schools didn’t take EBSA seriously, kids were punished, not supported. Only recently have some started recognising it. No wonderparents stopped listening. They watched schools punish their kids instead of helping, (forcing kids back into lesson when they were breaking down, and other examples), sothey withdrew their trust.

The most important thing is that both sides need to accept fault and recognise how the other side are right to a point. Now the relationship is broken. Parents often shout at teachers or refuse to accept discipline. Teachers meanwhile can be dismissive of parents who raise concerns. Decades ago parents sided with teachers, even when they were wrong and nobody advocated for children. Now they side with their kids too much. What’s needed is balance. Parents should listen to their child, then check with the teacher before reacting. Sometimes that will mean realising the school failed, and holding them accountable. Other times it means accepting the child did misbehave and backing the school to deal with it.
What would really help is both sides owning their mistakes and the role they play in problems. If both sides shifted even a little, trust could slowly be rebuilt and they would work together for the success of students rather than being against each other, which is never productive.

That would create huge safeguarding risks!

What you said really shows how the breakdown happened, and both sides are responsible. You said “as they feel so strongly about their dc’s rights”. That’s exactly it, parents pushing back harder and harder, often against schools, sometimes unreasonably, and teachers being sarcastic and bitchy in return. Both sides are reacting to each other instead of trying to understand each other and wrok together more, and that’s where the trust has gone. I'm not really talking about what you said, but sort of picking up on a tone about parents pushing so hard against teachers and how teachers have as a result gotten further opposed to them. There's always been that parent, but it used to be a lot less, now it's happening widely between both sides.

Schools do fail kids in lots of ways. SEN provision is often weak, bullying and increasing incidents of racism and misogyny aren’t dealt with properly, there’s little pastoral support, and kids with EBSA or mental health problems are punished rather than helped. At the same time schools come down hard on tiny things, like socks or hair, while not addressing bigger issues. I get that schools are stretched financially, which isn’t their fault, (though some MATs waste money at the top on excessive management roles while the schools in the trust get little for LSAs or textbooks). But many schools also don’t handle things well, staff aren’t trained properly in cultural competence, and teachers themselves often don’t feel supported by SLTs. Teachers are under constant pressure, from SLT, from Ofsted, from parents, and it trickles down into how they deal with kids and parents, as they redirect their anger to them.

Ofsted does play a part. Inspections should make schools want to show their best, so some nerves are natural, and it's unrealistic to want to get rid of inspections completely when scholls should be scrutinised as they have such an important job. However, the stress it causes right now is ridiculous and it needs to be reformed. Two days isn’t enough time, inspectors miss things and make snap judgments, and teachers are left with bad reports for things they actually did but inspectors didn’t see. Inspections should be about helping schools, not just criticising. If inspectors are ex-teachers, then they should be offering advice, and helping schools to problem solve their biggest issues, actually giving concrete things they can do and working with school, not just giving arbitrary judgments (this would also require a more diverse body of inspectors with diverse experiences, so you need a more diverse teaching workforce as well), and they should give praise to schools. I do think some of the new directions are good, like inclusion and attendance being judged separately. If they’re done properly they could push schools to be more thoughtful and responsive, especially about SEN, EBSA, poverty, bullying and marginalised groups like BAME kids, or disabled kids. It may lead to policies that are more than zero-tolerance and actually incorporate inclusion throughout the school.

The bigger point though is that teachers are leaving (more aboht burnout, lack of support, low pay etc), fewer people want to go into teaching (which is more about low pay and progression) and funding is poor. That’s on the government and should be recognised, if a school doesn't have enough money for enough LSAs, it's not fair to just say their inclusion is bad without recognised that. But inside schools there’s also a refusal to admit mistakes. SLTs and teachers sometimes deny their part in failings and don’t give kids the support they need.

I know parents who have been treated really badly. One asked for her daughter to be moved from lessons with a boy who had upskirted her and almost took a picture (including one where she sat next to him), and the school refused saying it was a one-off. They ignored her emails, her daughter got more anxious, and she started missing lessons because she was scared and embarrassed about what happened. Schools will probably say in a survey etc that those parents were difficult and made vexatious complaints. when clearly it was the school failing.

If they restrict toilet use to break and lunch, even though it’s logistically impossible for everyone to use the toilets during that time, then they have essentially made their school an uninhabitable building.

This is just another problem caused by the fact that schools have grown too big, and there aren't enough facilities or staff for the number of children they're trying to cram in. They have to be run like prisons to keep a basic level of control with the staff-student ratio they have. At my DC's school they're strict on toilet use, and can't always use the toilet at break or lunch either because they're so crowded. They have barely enough time to get their lunch (if they want to use the canteen) and have to eat it out of boxes, standing in the playground. The one time my child needed a temporary toilet pass, they said yes and then didn't give it. Nowadays I keep children off even for a hint of stomachache because of this. They've lost the foundations of basic civilised behaviour.

With the exception of sudden urgency I don't get why this has become a thing. When I was at school I don't remember anyone being so desperate to go that we had kids leaving the class right left and centre. The longest lesson was 2 hrs max. I don't think it ever occurred to anyone to even ask. In my 5yrs of high school I left the classroom once and that was because I thought I was going to throw up.

You must have missed my earlier post where I said I let six children go to the toilet during one lesson.

Smartphone free schools would solve some many of these issues.