To be shocked women still try to stop aging?

Absolutely. These threads that try to hold women to account for choices they make within a context they didn't create, and are navigating the best they can, never sit right with me. It serves only to divert attention from the underlying issues for which we are not responsible. It is also alienating because it holds women to another set of high standards, and makes perfect the enemy of good.

I agree! Not every choice is a feminist one. Feminism is considered an ideology in the sense that it’s a framework of ideas and principles aimed at challenging patriarchy and addressing gender inequality. That doesn’t mean everyone relates to it in exactly the same way, because there are lots of different strands and interpretations. For me, I tend to frame it most strongly around choice, but I can see how your perspective sits within the broader picture too.

Its not about making choices based on what men think, it's about choices that serve the patriarchy.
I do anti aging stuff. I really don't do it because I care what men think, their opinions don't interest me. I do it because I'm exercising my choice to look a way that pleases me. However, by applying my own critical thinking to my choices, I can see that by colluding with the anti aging industry, I'm colluding with the idea that women looking older is inferior to women looking younger.
This serves the patriarchy because it reinforces the idea that women's importance lies in their looks and youth, when they are most desirable to men for sex and having children; and leads to older women being sidelined, ignored and invisible, while their same age males continue to be seen and heard.
I can know this, yet do anti aging anyway, because I am free to choose, and not every choice I make is a feminist one. Nor does any other woman's need to be.

Im not sure that 'still' comes into it, we're all aging for the first time and it is difficult to accept.

No, you’re either free to do what you choose or not, assuming women make choices because of what men think is as bad as saying women shouldn’t vote as their tiny little brains can’t handle it… I assume that women have critical thinking and can assess their own decisions for what is right for them based on all available information.

No. You're only free from the patriarchy (in terms of your choices) if they are made without any regard for its influence. Which given it surrounds us, is nigh on impossible. Some women make choices in direct opposition to those they believe serve the patriarchy, others consciously or subconsciously make choices that serve it.
Whether a choice serves the patriarchy or not is usually a matter of fact, not of opinion, so whether other women agree with your choice or not is irrelevant to any objective benefit to the patriarchy.
Making choices other women agree with is also irrelevant to your freedom from the patriarchy. Though if you make choices aimed to free yourself, feminists will sometimes feel they are the better choices.

The OP admitted earlier in the thread that they feel they can't 'compete' with women who use Botox, etc. That's where the real issue lies.

So you’re only free from the patriarchy if it’s a choice that other women agree with? That doesn’t seem like freedom.

I’m mid 50s. Never had any “work”, wash my face with soap and moisturise with Nivea. SPF year round. I’m often told I look much younger than I am. Growing up, I was always “the clever one” and DSis was always “the pretty one”, and I have never tied up my self esteem with my looks, not that I have ever thought much of them anyway. I am inclined to agree with David Bowie:

@Worldgonecrazy Honestly I really couldn't care less what men in general think of me.
Ugh the vast majority of men my age and older give me the absolute ick.
Thanks Menopause-the rose tinted glasses are off and men in general fall far short in every way.

I do love my DH but if he left or died I would never ever live with another man again.
Luckily I worked hard and have inherited so am able to live a nice life alone if it came to it.
I would say 95% of my friends feel the same

This whole centering ones life around men to the extent you would chop your face up

God no!

It works better if you change sexualisation to objectification.

What do you do for a living?

I’ve never had Botox or any work done but I can say as someone self employed who has been both big and less arsed about my appearance and slimmer and putting more effort in that the latter means I get more respect and more money. It’s not right. I’m still the same person regardless of how I look. But people assume I’m more competent if I look younger/slimmer.

What is your definition of flawless skin? And what would that look like at 90?

Having been considered attractive in my younger days, ageing is hard. I know that I am still attractive to my husband and to a diminishingl number of other men. I recognise that the strive for an impossible instagram aesthetic is harming women of all ages, so not having Botox or fillers is my way of fighting back for women. It’s a hard and lonely battle - a huge part of me wants the face lift and fillers. Then I see how those look after a few years and remind myself of the long term prize which is to be 90 with flawless skin!

I live in an area with a lot of active older women, out jogging, doing yoga, sea swimming. They are my inspiration.

Interesting comment. I'm 49 and still have a sex drive though it's not what it was 25 years ago (thank goodness, in some ways!) But in order to have a sex drive I have to find myself attractive and feel confident in my body. That's not to say I have to be physical perfection or look young for my age, but I can look at myself and think "Yeah, not bad." I've lost two stone recently and most of that was for health reasons but I certainly feel more aesthetically pleasing to myself and feel more sexy and like having sex every now and then. I can't completely separate this from socialisation or a patriarchal society but at least to me, it really feels like this is something for my own benefit as I feel pretty good about it. Whilst being slightly annoyed as I am exactly the same person as I was six months ago when I was two stone heavier.

Why are you so bothered how other women spend their time & money? Live & let live.

And you thought the opposite- you thought it was more impressive when achieved by an attractive woman because you think they are at a disadvantage. We disagree on who has it worse. But hopefully we can agree that success in the workplace or in life in general should be separate from how someone looks.

my outdated comment was in reply of a comment saying that women who are not attractive deserve more respect.

I disagree.

If you could take my posts in the context they were written? that would help.

Im 50 and look after myself.

i don’t want to look younger. I want to be the best i can at 50!

This is actually a paradox. A lot of cultures where women are not sexualized and modesty is pushed are in fact very oppressive. Afghanistan is an extreme example, but you could find this among the Amish too.

Female freedom often goes with freedom to show off your looks. You may not like how other women express themselves, but you should accept it all the same.

You can judge women's equality by looking at how much we are sexualized. Women are self-sexualizing at an incredible rate due to social media. Its built on compare and despair. I hear you. I agree. Dealing with my own existential crisis here: menopause, aging...all of it and I know it's bullshit to want to look younger, yet here I am with meno bod, meno energy and meno skin. The practice is self acceptance and that is very, very difficult.

When did feminism change from

we're not allowed to do things, but we are responsible adults who can make sensible decisions so give us agency* and we shall prove how foolish you were to treat us as inferior

to

• we're allowed to do what we want but patriarchy infects us all and so the dumb choices we make are not our fault

It's not like the fashion and make-up industry is staffed entirely by men, is it? I believe, shock horror, there are even cosmetic surgeons who are women

This.
Obviously so many women look absolutely dreadful post treatment, I think it’s very sad they feel the need to do so.
If even celebrities, who can afford the best, start looking dreadful why would anyone think it might help them?
I guess it is that short term vision, and then once you get started it's too late.