MIL, advice/help/AIBU about my DC.

I’m a big believer in role modelling the behaviour you want to see from her OP. Be straightforward, be polite but firm and she’ll learn to respect you. It is zero business of her’s what type of birth you have; stop telling her stuff. Why she would expect to be part of her DIL’s birth is completely weird.

From your post it seems you are constantly worried about how your MIL will react and you have been pushed into a routine you don’t want. You need to take charge. Decide if/when you want her to see you and your child/children, exactly how much involvement you want from her and communicate this. Just say it as a fact. No negotiation, no compromise. We can compromise with reasonable people but it doesn’t work with people like this. Stop
thinking of how she feels and put yourself and your relationship with yoir children first. Believe me, she will eventually accept it, probably after much emotional blackmail, tantrums etc. Be firm and create the family life you want. That’s it.

perhaps you could talk to her and say you’re glad that you resolved the issues last time and that you’d like to agree upfront about how best she can support you this time rather than things come to a head like before? It’s normal that you’re worried she will do it again but I do think having the conversation now will help. Ask your DH to be present too if it helps. It doesn’t need to be dramatic ~ acknowledging that she apologised and that you’re grateful for her changed behaviour and support since then.

Sorry, me again! As for any guilt that you feel, well, that's the master manipulation at play. She has you all right where she wants you. And I do understand that there are times she can be great, right? Think about it...No one tolerates endless abuse. There have to be glimmers of a reward to keep people hanging on. She knows EXACTLY what she's doing. She has her playbook perfected.

Turning her back to you while holding an infant and carrying her out of the room when she was in need of her mother...do not underestimate that your MIL's response was extremely calculated. She WILL come between you and your children. It is her desire, and her actions have proven it. She has already tried since quite literally the moment of their birth!

She's self reporting her symptoms and that's her truth. Why would you not take her seriously? And that's when you say, Jan, I'm going to insist you see your doctor and until your neuro issues are resolved, you can visit but I can't let you watch her by yourself or carry her or give her a bath. If there was an accident, you would never forgive yourself.

You do not want to find out what an adult falling on a toddler can do. Or dropping her.

I'd also be checking on what meds she's taking. Back issues come with pain and some pain meds are not compatible with childcare.

Your child's physical safety is your priority. Someone who cares about your child will not want to endanger them by giving care when they are having symptoms like dizziness and confusion.

As for their bond, she sounds very smothering. What are you going to do as your daughter grows and wants to spend time doing activities or seeing friends instead of seeing your MIL?

I would also add that the MIL coming around to give your DD a bath once a week needs to stop soon. Your DD is already 3, almost 4? Do you want to normalize her having extended family seeing her nude on a regular basis? She is too old for this at this point, imo. It would be different if she were staying at the MILs and needed a bath, but having MIL over especially to bath a pre-school aged child just gives me the ick.

I would not let her start giving new baby a bath. Don't start any new weekly "habits."

The poster who mentioned that MIL isn't even safe to oversee bathing also raises a good point. You say that MIL is never alone with DD because of her mother? So an even older woman?

As for the great bond that DD has with MIL, it is very possible that as your DD grows up she will begin to feel smothered by your MIL's focus on her. This happened with my daughter and her overbearing grandmother. Also, my narc mother was determined to infantalize my daughter, taking great offense when DD started wanting to be with other kids or having a life of her own at school. There were numerous times as well where my narc mother tried to turn my daughter against me in an effort to be the favourite.

Five hours every Sunday is excessive. If you spent five hours every weekend with BOTH sets of grandparents, you would have no time left to be a family of three/four.

It makes me sad that your own mother sounds so much kinder and nicer and yet because your MIL demands so much and throws a fit if her "needs" aren't met, your MIL gets all this extra time with the grandchildren--and with you! I imagine your own mother could be sad about this but because she doesn't want to add demands to your time, she might keep some of that to herself...

If you were my daughter, and the other grandmother was behaving this way, I would honestly be heartbroken.

Maybe you can use this unfair time allotment as the excuse to start the conversation about new schedule, new rules, firm boundaries.

Good grief you’re seeing a lot of her for someone who clearly drives you up the wall…! If she starts eye rolling and being a jerk you leave - end of. So what if other relatives start gossiping. YOU are the mother - if you decide it’s not helping you, you can change it.

And if she starts messaging your husband, use that opportunity -
“why didn’t @Talkingthingsthrough want to stay/come today?”
“Well you were clearly still annoyed about the last time she cancelled as she had been getting grief from auntie X, so she decided it wouldn’t be helpful to see you until you had moved on”

OP, the line that stood out in your post is “the family clearly felt sorry for MIL who was desperately needing time with DD”. Sorry, since when does a MIL NEED time with a new baby? She may like it; she may want it, but she certainly doesn’t need it. You have allowed your MIL to become very involved - there is no way she should have been “noticeably annoyed with me that my DM was looking after DD and I hadn’t asked her.” As for sitting with her back to you and leaving the room even when the baby was upset - what sort of selfish monster is she? And why did you let her go off with your DD when the baby was upset? Remember, OP, you are your baby’s best advocate, and don’t ever be guilted/embarrassed/manipulated into not being. If your baby is upset, she wants her mother, not her needy and entitled Grandmother. I can’t believe you let her see more of your baby than your own DM, and when you say that if you ask for your own baby, you get “sulky faces, eye rolls and then ignorance towards me for wanting baby back”, that is outrageous - and should be ignored. OP, DON’T stand for it. The fact that you’re worrying before this baby is even here, and your MIL is wittering on about a home birth (presumably so she can be involved) is frankly horrifying. You can’t carry on like this - you are going to have to get DH to have a word with her, to the effect that it’s your baby, and if she’s allowed a cuddle, then it’s a privilege, not a cue for sulks when she is asked to give the baby back, and that if she can’t accept that, then you won’t be coming round because it makes you uncomfortable. OP, having a baby is something special and it should be a lovely time for you - not something you are dreading because if your MIl’s behaviour. I write this as a MIL and a grandmother myself - she is being very selfish and uncaring of your feelings.

I find posts like this difficult to read. While I totally empathise with you and completely validate your feelings, you and your DH need to step up and be firm with your expectations and boundaries. Nobody will advocate for your mental wellbeing but you. Same as your baby- if your baby needs a feed they need a feed, end of no discussion, take baby back and who cares if MIL is 'upset'. She's manipulating you, you already know this and her 'upset" feelings aren't genuine.

I'm sorry if that sounded in any way like tough love- genuinely I really feel for you because this has gone on for a long time now but consider baby no.2 as a new chapter with how you are going to deal with MIL and set your boundaries now- the first place I'd be starting is distancing myself via message and visits- perhaps cut down to 1 visit per week eg the Sunday. Be firm in how you communicate eg. 'Hi MIL, we are only available on Sunday next week- does that suit you for a visit? If not we'll catch up the following week'.

I wish you the best of luck, it's really tough but you'll thank yourself down the line 💐

I’m so sorry that you are going through this. I just wanted to post as our situations are spookily similar, it’s almost as if I could have written it. My MIL would follow me when I breastfed DD1 so that she could take her when she was finished. She said it was to keep me company and at the time I thought she was helping but looking back I wish I’d kept hold of DD as it made me feel like I was just a milking machine.

I have also recently had my second DC and despite saying how we felt with first DC, PILs behaviour still didn’t improve. Things came to a head a second time and since then I’ve been very low contact with them. DH and I have agreed on boundaries and how often we’ll see them.

I’m a people pleaser and whilst it has been hard to put in boundaries and not let someone manipulate or guilt trip you into doing what they want, it has been so refreshing and freeing to know that you don’t have to give into them and to put yourself and your family first.

Good luck!

"she had spells of forgetfulness, confusion and losing balance (this still occasionally happens)"

Would you hire a professional caregiver who had spells of forgetfulness, confusion, and losing balance?

"even though since DD was 1 year old MIL has had her every Wednesday morning, Thursday evenings she comes over our house to do bath and bed routine and every Sunday we are around her from 1:30-6:30pm, as well as sometimes seeing her more often than this, "

So she's doing childcare despite having these spells. She's giving a young toddler a bath and she has occasional neuro issues. You would rather have an unfit caregiver for your daughter than tell her no because you're afraid she'll whine to family and do what else?

Let her get mad. She has a spell in the bathroom and your kid has a slip and fall and then you'll all be sorry because you knew but did nothing because you were afraid of her hurt feelings and reaction. You're prioritizing your mil's feelings over your child's physical safety.

Your MIL is overbearing and trying to be the main parent. Stop letting her. So she gets mad. You have the power. This is your child, not hers. Right now your husband has seen her and backed her off a tiny bit. He needs to set some really strong boundaries.

Here's one.

No more childcare until she gets these spells checked and gets medical treatment and they resolve. Surely your MIL cares about your child's safety.

So sorry this has been your experience. I totally get the anxiety about wanting your baby close by. It’s a very strong instinct. And possibly hard to understand if you haven’t been through it (or it has been a long time!) that you can both feel exhausted by the early baby days, yet want to do the majority of baby care yourself.

I agree with others, DH and yourself need to be a team and discuss both of your expectations and boundaries. Maybe it’s a good time to chat about his relationship with family on your side too? So that things feel more balanced?

I’m also a firm believer in just going and getting your baby back when you want them. There doesn’t need to be any more reason than that. During the toddler and young child phase children will have their independence and can choose to spend time, and play with who they choose too. If grandparents are only interested in the tiny baby stage, then they have strange priorities! Babies need cuddles, with their parents! Good luck!

I am shocked at how much you tolerate from this woman! It will be very difficult to start setting boundaries now when she has bulldozed through so much in the past, but you must. This is a classic personality type--she sulks, gives silent treatments, and essentially throws the adult version of a tantrum when she doesn't gets her way. She has everyone in the family trained to believe it is just easier to give in to her! And of course, the demands will just increase the more they are met.

The mere fact that she is already voicing opinions on your birth plan shows that nothing has changed. People who are this self-serving and manipulative are masters of turning on the water works and giving fake apologies if they feel they are backed into a corner. My mother is much like what you are describing. I can tell you with near certainty that nothing will improve unless you set major, firm boundaries; the more you give this woman her way, the more she will demand.

This woman robbed you of precious time with your firstborn child because you let her. You can never get that time back. Don't let it happen again.

In general, I'd start creating some distance. She has a history of taking ownership of moments that should be between you and your child--it will only continue if you let it. Trust me! She has been overstepping in every possible way, and she has demonstrated a consistent and complete disregard for your place as the mother. The fact that you spend more time with your MIL than your own mother is proof of the hold this woman has over you.

When your children are all grown and out of the house, will you look back and wish that you'd stood up for these special moments, even the Santa letter, etc, or will you be happy that you gave in to your MILs demands because you couldn't stand the fallout if you didn't?

I'd do some research on Narcissistic Personality Disorder and how to best respond to it.

I think getting DH on board is absolutely key. You see mil 3 times a week? Seems an awful lot. There’ll be no allowing her to endlessly hold the baby or take dd because you ‘need a break’ in her opinion. Set out your stall with big boundaries as soon as the baby is born, discuss minute detail with your Dh beforehand! Be strong and don’t allow her to spend more time than YOU want with the children.

Honestly, you have made a rod for your own back by agreeing to spend so much time with your MIL every week. She has basically been rewarded for her pushy and cruel behaviour towards you after your DD was born.

Decide how much contact suits you once you have a new born and your DD to look after and don't be bullied into anything that doesn't feel comfortable for you. Don't let your MIL take over with your DD under the guise of giving you time with your new baby as you don't want your DD to feel pushed out.

You need to discuss this with your DH and make sure that he supports you. Your MIL ruined your early experience of being a mum with your DD so you need to make sure that this doesn't happen again.