Marks & Spencers bra fittings and trans women - they've missed the point

Sorry should have said "it's one thing to want a bra fitted by a biological female"

I don't get what the issue is with a trans woman or man asking women if they need assistance? He wasn't giving them a bra fitting. I feel M&S should have backed their staff member on this one. It's one thing not to want a biologically female, it's another to be "freaked out" by just being spoken to politely by a trans person. The latter is just bigotry.

Or the chance to tell off a few Terfs?

@NumbersGuy

What attracted you to this old thread?

The idea of an underage girl?

The idea of a man being able to walk up to any random young girl or woman and discuss her bra size?

The chance to wave "your willy lived experience" on a public fourm?

🍿

Words matter and a lot of people do not understand the distinction between transman and trans man. One is a biological female and the other is a biological male ( trans man = transed into a man).

Most people posting here use transman with no space. TIM (trans identifying man) is for trans man with a space.

what if a trans man goes and gets breast implants -because some do?
Still a man. And he knows he is a man. Good men stay out of female only spaces and if he doesn't then he's not a decent human being is he. He's the type women are campaigning against. Nothing to do with womanly feelings or surgically changes but about decency, safety and following the law and men, of any shape or form, need to stay out of women's/girls spaces. It's not that fucking difficult.

I would argue that a man in women only spaces cause harm no matter what they look like or how they behave.
I would also ask how one can feel like a woman or be treated as one

I'm not sure of you would consider India Willoughby to be a genuine transwomen (he's had surgery and takes cross sex hormones) but he has posted before about gender neutral toilets which he will walk past in order to use the female toilets. He would consider that being required to use gender neutral toilets is transphobic because TWAW.

Completely agree with Marks & Spencer’s decision however what if a trans man goes and gets breast implants -because some do?
I don’t see how they can avoid that then?

Yes agreed, but some feel like they are a woman, and just want to be treated as a woman, and don’t mean any harm. And yet there are some raging AGPs who want nothing more to barge into everything ‘woman’ and will scream and shout and stamp their feet if anyone tries to stop them.

Not sure what a "genuine" TW is or how one goes about ones life as a woman
They are men, whatever their intentions are and have no more right to womens spaces than my DH does

The thing is there are genuine trans women and blokes getting turned on by pretending to be women. And it’s impossible to tell the difference. Genuine trans women are far more likely to use the gender neutral loo as they don’t need that affirmation and they care about women’s feelings of safely. Going about their lives as a women is enough for them. So that means blokes who barge into female loos are far more likely to be of the pervert variety.

Someone on here pointed out last week that for the majority of TW its not the spaces but the women in them that are important.
If a woman worked in a male only workspace and a toilet was set aside solely for them I imagine the woman would be delighted. If it was a women only workplace and a toilet was set aside solely for TW I imagine they would not want to use it
Its women as props

If someone wants to create that business (and the products for it) then that’s up to them. They can decide if there is enough if a market sbd where to put their shops. It isn’t incumbent on M&S to do this. They make bras for women and girls. They have a fitting service for women and girls. By clarifying who their service is for, they are protecting their customers and their staff.

Ooh, my. You really went all out to hit all the boxes on the bingo card there, didn't you? Lesbians, running about with genitals out, xray vision, claims that it's impossible to tell and as a special bonus, an insulting term for women!

I mean, your utterly batshit stream of consciousness is almost a 'how to' for TRA's scolding women.

I expect you're getting a round of applause from the 'get those bitches telt' crowd.

Exactly. The whole ‘Tickle v Giggle’ story in Australia is about how AI identified male faces with an 85% success rate, and women taking a look at the pictures identified the rest of the blokes pretending to be women.

And if a women insisted I was a bloke in the women’s loos I’d have no qualms about setting her right because I - as a women - know how terrifying a man who thought he had the right to waltz into a women’s loo could be.

Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

So are you saying you can’t tell a make from a female unless they’re undressed? Have you visited an optician lately? I think you’re due a visit. I find Boots really good. Or Vision express.

Ah! A bloke who thinks he knows it all.

Have you any idea about how many woman are sexually assaulted in their lifetime? I think it’s about 65%. Staggering figures. Just staggering! Men are a threat to women. Did you think the lady measuring your inside leg was about to sexually assault you? Probably not, because you’re a bloke and sexual assault isn’t something that happens to the vast majority of men in their lifetime, so it’s not something that crosses most men’s minds. Unlike women. Who think about this daily. Have you any idea what that’s like? And then to be told that you have to put up with men in a single sex space just cause they feel like being there? Terrifying to so many women. But this wouldn’t have occurred to most men. Try being sexually assaulted by the opposite sex - I am early 50s and have been assaulted 4 times so far - and see how you’d feel about blokes then.

“Oh but they feel like a women so let them be!”. Fuck off over that far horizon, and when they’ve got there, fuck off quite a bit further, please.

Are you getting a little inkling of an understanding about this yet?

It's amazing how far out-of-bounds the story went. Firstly, the mother said that the shop assistant was biologically male, which UNLESS they had their willy out and flapping it all about, they don't know who is biologically female or male. As there have been numerous videos of biological females being harassed by Karens who said they were trans, and had to contact police to have them removed, because "they just knew" in their own warped sense of judge and jury. All that needed to be said was "no thank you" and then move on, but they needed to embarrass everyone around, likely including the daughter (who didn't say anything btw), about the situation. M&S likely goes through a vigorous screening process before hiring any employees, and they were likely confident with their hiring of this person. However, with this incident, I'm reminded of how many women who worked in the men's department stores would embarrass me growing up by having to check the inseam of my trousers and hating where they had to check everything and my own mother discussing if they got the right measurements by double checking them. Why not just do physical examinations of everyone's genitalia, male and female, as well as psychological testing, the Rorschach test while we're at it to make sure they have no ill-conceived nefarious thoughts. All I can say is that anyone who believe "only biological women should be bra fitters" had better check to see if they have a lesbian membership card. Now that, may be a lot worse than a hysterical woman who believes she has x-ray vision and can see people's genitalia through their clothes, just like they have at the airports.

I have. More then most. It very clearly is.

But they have to be pink crocs with sparkles on...

Sorry I couldn't resist it was such a good typo!

The places where they like to be seen as inclusive & providing mixed gender toilets etc are actually taking away the opportunity for them to go into a women’s space. So actually not doing what they want.

Me too!!!

Yes, although in many cases I have a feeling they don’t actually believe they are women.

Women in general tend to be much more aware of the needs of others and far less likely to insert themselves into spaces where they know they would make others feel uncomfortable or distressed. (For the anti woman posters on here, obviously I’m not saying that if you are a woman who doesn’t display those behaviours you are not a real woman but this is a well observed and documented generalisation)

These men at best know they cause distress and don’t care and at worst, our distress is part of the thrill.

We used to know this about men as a society but it feels like so many people have had their brains wiped.

🙄 This isn't a HP Lovecraft story, it's about men in bras.

This is the crocs of it. They believe they are women and they are not.