Marks & Spencers bra fittings and trans women - they've missed the point

Oh yeah i'm so very sorry if with tits needs to get a bra fitted regardless of gender Whether that be a trans woman a trans man or any other person I think you're forgetting that a lot of the population have tits I need bras Not just trans women and sis women you probably haven't even taken into account what intersex person is

if it was a CIS woman would it be Assault on a Child Plus she wasn't unaccompanied

and do you hear yourself You do realise some women might be weirdos or something Does that mean that we should ban all women from getting a bra fitted and i'm you're saying your friend works in a court and see that in that court There's not very nice people in there that's like saying I went to a prison and there was bad people in there

this tells me you know nothing about trans people Holy molly When you do feminising hrt you grow breasts like have you not done your own research on trans Do you even know what gender dysphoria is

Oh. No worries. The space matters to some people. But not in the meaning.

The space matters hugely to some people because it allows people to play with language and make the ‘trans’ part of the compound noun into an adjective. They use it when they say trans women are just another women like ‘tall’ women.

I stand corrected. I had thought (from a couple of years ago) that a space mattered to the meaning of the word. I'm very glad it doesn't!

Nooooo. Surely they wouldn't lie?

Are you serious? When Ministry of Justice statistics show that trans-identifying men are twice as likely as other men to commit sex offences? When men use the pretence of 'identifying as a woman' to get off on listening to women urinating? And have you read the accounts by TiMs themselves of having started out by stealing their mother's or sister's underwear? Do wake up.

They did review the fitting policy as the SuperTRA rants on X and direct contacts etc provided evidence that the management were opening up their female staff to sexual harrassment from men.

As for providing training so their male staff do not hang out in ladies undies?
Who knows 🤷‍♀️

You're new here aren't you OP?

Agree, more than happy for everyone to be reminded of M&S’s gross misogyny

Oh dear, what a shame if it trends again. I hadn’t forgotten about this and will never be buying clothes from M&S ever again, especially not underwear that may have been tried on by men. I wonder if they have removed the reviews from men wearing ladies underwear from their er site yet? Or are they aiming to replace their core market of women with men who like ladies underwear?

I’d be interested to know if M&S has made any changes to their policies or sanctioned any male staff hanging out in women’s lingerie section.

As a biological woman, I would not feel comfortable fitting a biological man with a bra. 🙄

The issue is not that a female child was 'spoken to politely by a trans person' though.

The issue is that a female child was spoken to IN THE BRA section by a MALE person.

As people have said, accurate language is important. So is including all the relevant information.

NO female child should be approached by a male person in the bra department. This is inappropriate behaviour by that male person. And no, M&S should not have backed their staff member on this behaviour, it is not appropriate at all. That staff member should also not have been there in that department from what M&S have also said.

Just have men doing bra fitting for men in the men’s section - sorted!

It doesn't matter if there is a space or not.

A 'trans man' is a 'transman' and this refers to a female person with a transgender identity.

A TIM is called by some people a 'trans woman' or a 'transwoman'.

That is always true

But this one is in AIBU and months old and would have been well hidden down list and not even likely to pop into the similar threads and not even in FWR

Anyway..... M&S are not going to be happy with this popping up and trending again🙃

Can you explain exactly why do you think it is ok for any type of male person to walk up to a random young girl or young woman and ask her about her underwear?

Popping in on this strangely reawakened thread to say that safeguarding 101…

Don't approach unaccompanied children (unless they are in immediate danger). Let them approach you if they need help, which you can then organise for them in an appropriate way.

If you are male then the above is particularly important due to the unfortunate record your sex has, statistically speaking.

‘Transman’ usually describes a female who wants to be perceived as male. What you’re describing is usually called a ‘transwoman’ or a TIM (trans-identifying male).

The person you describe could take his own measurements and order online- there are lots of good measurement calculators online to use.

Or he could try a shop that isn’t M&S. He might have some luck at an independent bra shop but the decision will be down to the shop owner and/or the bra fitter as to whether they should have to measure a man for a bra. If no one wants to provide him this service then he’ll have to stick to online ordering. Maybe order a bunch of sizes and then send back what he doesn’t need. He could have avoided it all by not deliberately acquiring breasts that didn’t naturally occur on his body.

Many years ago, I had a Saturday job in M&S when I was a student. It was in the lingerie department. In those days we were all trained bra fitters and, whether we were in the changing room or on the shop floor, someone could approach us and ask for a fitting. I fitted women of all ages, shapes and sizes. I was never once approached by a make customer and we never had men working in that department. It was a safe and comfortable environment for something quite intimate. I think we did an excellent job at what is sometimes a sensitive time ( buying first bras, maternity bras, mastectomy bras all come with a lot of emotion). I really enjoyed working there. I wouldn’t be comfortable encountering a man, let alone a man in a frock in that environment. M&S made a mistake and have corrected it.

It’s a linguistic problem, which is why self-ID cannot be permitted. Using trans a a suffix for women, men or gender allowed sexual predators to hide in plain sight. They need to be clinically diagnoses as suffering gender dysphoria or autogynaephilia (spelling?) or whatever else it is they are afflicted with. And our society needs to stop facilitating. Someone with genuine gender dysphoria won’t be offended by women not wanting to share the changing rooms with them. Someone with a sexual predation issue will. If we stop using language created to eviscerate women and start using medical terminology all these problems go away.

I agree that any man who choose to go into a women’s space is a raging pervert, but there are transwomen who just want to be left alone and would never dream of going into women’s single sex spaces for that reason. Not all transwoman are dodgy, but those who choose to invade women’s spaces most definitely are.

The use of ‘hysterical’ and ‘Karens’ gives away more about you than you might want to advertise @NumbersGuy

FFS
You don't think there is anything wrong with a male staff member approaching a teenage girl on her own in the vicinity of the underwear department and asking if she needed help?
According to M&S this is NOT policy