The school run has put me off other women

Everyone’s fighting their own battles and you have no idea what people are dealing with behind closed doors day to day.

This is why I don’t say flippant things like ‘this is a you problem’ to people.

This is a you problem. Sometimes I want to chat to people at pick up, sometimes I don’t. If I thought people might be offended by that (as you clearly are) that’s a you problem. You need to be less needy and less sensitive. Everyone’s fighting their own battles and you have no idea what people are dealing with behind closed doors day to day.

I agree, when I was part of a group of mum friends we would all stand together. We were friends inside and outside of school so we chatted at the school gate. I then got divorced and no one speaks to me now, which is fine, I don't mind standing on my own. I stood with the as our children were friends but more importantly we were friends as adults.

Mum cliques or groups of friends? I’m sure the people in the so called mum cliques have no idea that they are perceived as being in a clique, they are just hanging out with their friends which they are perfectly entitled to do. Also they are probably not obsessing over other people’s interactions towards them and just going about their day!

Mmmm 🤔 my experience is that often there are cliques at the school gates. Not always the case that there are cliques and unpleasantness but don't ignore your own observations and kid yourself it's all luvvy duvvy and blame yourself if it's hard to find anyone friendly to talk to. Yes, your past can get projected onto those who are totally innocent of cliquiness but regardless of past negative experiences, of which you seem very self aware, the school gates can still feel like a very hostile place if you are the newby wanting to find a social group, or just friendly people to chat with while you wait. Sometimes that's because people are just too busy or already in a small closed group and not looking to meet new people, quite understandable, but then, sometimes, they form into cliques where they seem to be getting a sense of worth by deliberately excluding outsiders - pointedly ignoring people, unpleasant gossip, labelling and even bullying. I've met a huge range of people at the school gates and still have many friends from my first child's cohort. There was just one from my time there with my second child who was himself bullied and excluded by an unpleasant 'in-crowd' of women who went out of their way to try and make us feel we weren't good enough for them. He was popular enough with his classmates but not allowed to play with them after school and all sorts of unpleasant stuff went on (he's a very caring and well balanced adult now, happily not scarred for life). It wasn't a good experience, especially as the group was quite large, spent a lot of time talking about the importance of the local community and how people should feel they belong but then refusing to speak to me, a neighbour, and another rather bemused mum, so I guess we weren't alone as there were two of us (still friends, she's still in the same town, still getting the cold shoulder). Just saying, tread cautiously and be persistent, be prepared for worst and hopefully you'll find some lovely people or perhaps even just one or two people you can make friends with.

But maybe she wanted to talk to the other people more? She did the socially acceptable thing, then went to talk to her mates. It's probably more polite to stay talking to the person you saw first, but if I'm making polite conversation with Ian on my street, then I see Barbara walking past, I actually want to talk to Barbara, because she saw what was kicking off last night. Or whatever.

Sorry had to laugh out loud at that. PTAs can be an absolute vipers’ nest. I went to my first PTA meeting thinking I’d get to know people, maybe make some friends. I emerged having somehow been voted in as chair, and got universally disliked or avoided from that point onwards (apart from 2 other people who were also trying to make the PTA work). Including by the few parents I already knew fairly well.

If you think that continuously begging busy parents for money and to volunteer their time, trying to organise events in a school where staff are run off their feet, stressed, and all thinking of leaving, is the way to win friends and influence people - go right ahead 😂

No they'd say hi and then turn their backs and return to talk to another person in their group. For example, before the holidays, I saw one of them and said, "Hi, how are you?" She replied, "Good thanks, you?" And then turned her back to me and went to speak to someone else and clearly not wanting to continue a conversation. Or another instance, I bumped into one of the mum's at the school gate and started making polite conversation while we walked, but as soon as she saw other members of the group standing then mid sentence she says, "OK, see you later," and walks away quickly to stand with them. This is awkward as obviously our children are in the same class so I also need to stand outside the classroom door and am walking to the same place...

For what it's worth I've always had female friends, I take care of my appearance, and like to think I'm a fairly confident and friendly person. I have no issues with mums outside of this group in my other child's class or in my youngest child's nursery. Just because it's not something you've experienced doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Luckily I have other friends, can brush it off and find someone else to go and say hello to, but it still doesn't feel great.

I just stand on my own or sit on a bench in the playground. Third child going through. I don't mind if anyone speaks to me or not, it's no skin off my nose. It gets easier with time! The more children that go through the system the less you mind!

Absolutely. But tbh, the school gate thing only lasts about 5 or 6 years, then children are more independent and you don’t need to hang about in the playground. I did make friends with some mums when mine were at primary, but it’s usually superficial, and once you don’t need to arrange play dates etc anymore, or don’t need someone to pass the time with whilst you’re in the playground waiting, these friendships normally fizzle out.

I think when my son starts school I won't try to make friends like last time as it always gets awkward when the kids inevitably fall out!

Why don't you don't just drop your kids off at school and then leave? Easy to do. 🤷

Mum cliques absolutely so exist.
I didn't realise I was in one until I was back on the outside of it. It's not in anyone's head and they do make things uncomfortable.
My daughter's starting a new school this coming term and I can't wait to have a fresh start and not involve myself with any of the other parents.

This is probably it. Try volunteering with the pta or other areas of the school community. There will be more opportunities for meaningful interaction and you might spark it off with somebody.

Sometimes it does feel a bit rubbish if you are on your own in a busy public environment like that with no one to vent to about day to day things.

This is probably it. Try volunteering with the pta or other areas of the school community. There will be more opportunities for meaningful interaction and you might spark it off with somebody.

Sometimes it does feel a bit rubbish if you are on your own in a busy public environment like that with no one to vent to about day to day things.

Was just going to say the same thing lol

I don’t think you’ve been around all-male or male dominated workplaces. DH works in a deeply male industry, which is 100% male in this country at senior level , and it is, at times, astonishingly back-stabbing and focused on petty power play and malice. I’m often in the car with him when he’s on Teams meetings and calls, and I would absolutely characterise his industry as ‘bitchy’ and catty, but both those are gendered terms. The fact that the people involved are wearing ties and fighting about multi-million deals doesn’t change the petty malice that often powers things alongside the money-making.

Exactly. The only thing that ‘school mums’ have in common is that they are women, and that they have children. So are we saying that all women with children are bitchy/cliquey/whatever else, or just the ones who happen to take their kids to school and pick them up?
Some are nice. Some aren’t. Just like some men are nice and some aren’t. And some child free women are nice and some aren’t.

Let’s not pretend that people’s own prejudices and past experiences can’t put a spin on things, that aren’t necessarily reality.

I am absolutely belittling how the OP feels. ‘School mums’ aren’t some uncontacted tribe or alien species, they’re other women exactly like the OP in the sense that they’re (1) female and (2) have children at the same school. It is not the job of a random selection of the British public to rush to befriend her, and, frankly, if the way she posts about women on here reflects the way she presents in RL, I’m not surprised she struggles socially. Internalised misogyny and stereotyping are not appealing to other people.

I mean, I’ve been the one standing alone in an ‘unfriendly’ schoolyard for four years, and it was no fun at all, but even at the time, and after I’d made a lot of effort to integrate, I didn’t blame the other women involved. After I’d been there a bit, I realised how ‘unusual’ I was (foreigner WOHM to start with) in a place where that was almost unheard of, and where pretty much everyone else had gone to school together. It didn’t matter how involved in the PTA and local events I got, how much litterpicking I did, how many invitations I issued and play dates I hosted. I just wasn’t their type of person. Nor were they mine.

I find this trope about the school gates so weird. If people are standing in a group talking, they're not a "clique". Would you say that about friends on a walk or at the pub? They're just women who are just as busy and frazzled as you are, and they're taking the chance of a 3 minute catch up with people they know. Introduce yourself, you might realise they're not evil high school bullies after all.

Also, just to add my own direct experience of school gate mums "ignoring" me:

I had the most lovely group of school mum friends with my eldest, when he left I was so sad but thought I would make new friends again when my youngest started.

OMG. Couldn't have been any more different. No-one speaks to us, we are completely blanked by everyone except the mums who also have younger children there that I knew from before. I was so disappointed.

I did "make friends" or so I thought, with one mum. I asked if anyone wanted to come to soft play after school and she came. I think she was hoping others would also come as she kept looking around and towards the door, but we spent two hours together and conversation was pleasant. I added her on Facebook and she accepted.

Then she completely and utterly blanked me. Literally I would say "morning" as she passed by and she would just stare straight ahead and not make eye contact. I thought maybe she was just in her own world and didn't notice me or something but then on parents' evening while waiting outside the classroom she came out with her child. I said, brightly, something like "Oh hi, how did it go" and before I could finish the sentence she said "Bye, Stacey*!" to the other mum waiting and breezed out, ignoring my existence. My mouth fell open and I looked behind me in shock and the other mum saw so it must have all got back to her.

I deleted her off Facebook and have blanked her ever since. I just don't understand what I did.
I mean, I'm fine, I have plenty of friends, but wtf did I do? 😂

*all names are changed

I love women, I really do. I have some amazing female friends and I think female comradery is the most amazing, beautiful thing. I've seen it in action many times. We're great at helping and supporting one another when we want to be. Truly great at being there for one another.

However, female bitchiness is also a real thing in a way you just don't see in male friendships. I don't know if it's because society is set up to pitch us against one another or because society treads on women so we just feel more competitive against one another. For whatever reason, it's undeniably there.

Try working somewhere like a children's nursery where male staff are rare. It's the bitchiest, pettiest work environment I've ever set foot in and I'll never go back.

Gosh a lot of very defensive women on here, totally belittling how you feel. Your feelings are valid. If you don't feel comfortable in a situation, then don't let anyone make you feel that it is a "you thing"... Yes women can be utter bitches and you are not alone in feeling that. The people defending this so strongly, probably unconsciously display this behaviour to others and don't wish to acknowledge it. Drop the kids off, leave and go home and move on. You are not wrong though and no one has the right to make you feel like you are imagining a situation.

Could it also be that people in the 'clique ' are a bit socially awkward and don't know how to respond to people outside their comfort zone?

I was bullied by various groups of people in school. I was a bit weird, so probably didn't help myself much either. It did take me some time to switch my perception of other groups as 'they're all going to hate me/ they're all sneering at me/looking at me funny' to a more neutral one.

One the parents in dd's class was like this. FB posts full of people being shits/ rude etc, yet if you saw her about and tried to smile or say hi, she'd avoid you.