The school run has put me off other women

That wasn't awkward, it was downright rude. And it wasn't my first attempt.

Those on the inside can’t see it can they? If you haven’t experienced it most people haven’t got a clue.

you say hello and soon enough they turn their back on you. Or move the conversation to stuff you have no chance of joining in with. Laugh at you for the normal things you do . Catch the eye of their friend when you own up to your work. Pull a face at you. You know when you are being pushed away and disliked and it’s usually the ones who are slightly different - ND, or different class or accent , probably the same with race and disability. Much less likely to find acceptance in the mums group. Just how it is.Edit - it’s not a one off it’s a repeated pattern. Unless you happen to find another excluded person

You do realise that pretty much everyone has an awkward or difficult experience in a group don't you? And that the reason people end up with long term friends is that they power through and get over it? Do you really believe there are people who never say the wrong thing, always get met with smiles and laughter, never have a weird moment?

It’s ok you think that. I’ve met lots of wonderful men. I’m married to one, my family has them.

I was talking in general. You don’t need to agree or understand.

I gave up the September day I joined a circle of women, all of whose DC had been to play in my garden during the summer, cheerfully asked "did everyone have a good summer?" and was met by stony silence from all of them.

It's so tiresome isn't it. Anyone can come and speak to me I would love to make more mum friends but I have the ones I have and naturally we chat! The same people stand alone or on their phone and don't make any effort (which is absolutely fine they don't have to! its not for everyone!) but you can't complain of bitchiness unless you actively make the effort to join in and are somehow shunned by an entire group of mums which I realllly cant see happening!

I get along better with men. I didn't know why until I was diagnosed with ADHD, and probably have some ASD traits as well. It's just my communication style that fits better with more men than women. I've also accepted that there are just very few people that I get along with, and as I've aged I've stopped people-pleasing and don't try so hard to be friends with people that aren't my type.
However I wouldn't rule out a whole gender just because you get along better with men. You just haven't found your people yet. There are other mums out there that you'll meet and get along with. It just takes time.

I get it,

I hate the school run, but only because I struggle with social anxiety and I wonder if I am being judged because I keep to myself.

I think this is a valid question OP and would probably help us work out what's actual nastiness and what's just busy-ness.

If they're talking nastily about you, directly ignoring you and not responding when you say hello, then yes that's horrible.

But if they're just talking to people they know and aren't making effort with you then I think you are maybe projecting a bit. When you've had a bad experience it's easy to do this because you're trying to protect yourself, but I also think it's possible they're trying to get in and out and don't have the time to stop and chat with anyone. Plus, a lot of people will know each other from their kids doing clubs/ being related/ being neighbours or maybe the parents grew up together. So that is an established social network that proceeds you. So if you want to break into that, then you'll probably need to really put yourself out there and actively say hello to everyone and make a point of trying to initiate conversation.

Personally, I really hate small talk and just want to drop and run but I'd hate for that to be perceived as unpleasantness when the reality is I'm shite at mornings and am usually running behind.

So as the pp asked, what is it that they are actually doing?

Well if you think about it, it's a weird setup. It's a large collection of adults standing around at random in a space. You have to get to know only one or two, for example at a kids birthday party. So then when you see them, you seek them out and chat on the playground or gate. Is that what you view as a "clique"? I feel like you're framing it wrong.

Ever heard of shift work?

what a daft commemt

In my ds class the mum's were generally a nice bunch. In my dds class they were an utter horror show...I think I'm a fairly normal confident person but honestly it affected me so much. You were either their absolute bestie for life or shit on their shoe. There was no middle ground. I occasionally see some of them in my local area and it brings it flooding back.

I'll also add I'm not a woman who has male friends...I only have female friends and that is my preference.

Yes women and girls can exclude and bully women especially those who don’t conform properly and yes that leads to your brain leaping from “these women hate me” to “all women hate me “ to “i hate all women”

it’s a self protection mechanism as the exclusion is real and is hurtful

unfortunately there are a lot of women who expect conformity - you have to wear the right clothes, do the make up , watch the right TV and heaven help if you own up to being a techhie.- edit to add even if they deny vehemently that they have such expectations

many of those women grow up and out of it or you find your tribe at some point - I haven’t worked out which

but there are a lot of them about - it’s a form of sexism that they are displaying so don’t beat yourself up about any internal mysogeny - they taught it to you

Yes, I can relate to this. I very much gravitated towards the boys at school. I only got involved with girls who were sporty and straightforward. And nothing has changed (now in my 50's). Cliques aren't for me and an all-female friendship group never appealed (with the exception of the netball team in school; those girls were amazing).

I made a couple of very good female friends at the school gates but over the years I heard there was a lot of drama and competition among the school mum groups. Fortunately, I was on the outside of this with 3 or 4 good friends.

You are getting a hard time for the most part here, OP but maybe you genuinely want to understand. And I wonder if it's more about friendship groups than it is about men or women.

Being around a school again brings back memories of our own time at school and if you were bullied and excluded by other girls back then, of course these upsetting memories are going to resurface. I hope in time you can make a couple of nice friends like I did. It is only a few minutes of your day but everybody would like someone to chat to and feeling excluded is difficult at any age. It is human nature to want to fit in and feel embedded into our community.

I don’t understand how people have all these school gate issues, I drop my kids off and pick them up, I sometimes have a wee chat to various parents, no one is nasty or horrible?

This is what I notice from my dh friends and social life. If one of them introduces another mate into the group, everyone is happy for him to join them on nights out ...whereas I find with women there is often endless private discussions about this new addition and what it means.

I really can’t say that any of the men I’ve known well, hate women. If that’s your experience, then I think you’ve been very unlucky. Or maybe I’ve just been very lucky.

Me and DH do the darts and pool league in our local pub and we see this a lot. We meet new people there all the time and it’s a chatty friendly environment in general for both men and women. I think it’s easy to get talking to someone in a pub though, with the booze and the fact you’re often sat in close proximity to/ on a table with strangers. Even if people are already in groups it’s an environment that lends itself to making friends.

What are the mums actually doing?

There's always some people on these threads who say that it's not cliquey, but I think they are probably lucky that they haven't encountered it. I have two school aged children; in one class most parents mix and chat and are friendly, but in the other it is a nightmare. The parents in that class literally do not say hello to anyone outside of their group, or mums who I thought I was friendly with will blank me when other members of the group are around. It's bizarre mean girl behaviour.

I’m with you on this one op!

I was bullied really badly at school by groups of girls who were merciless. I have ASD in my family which was unknown about then and I am sure my pedantic approach to things didn’t help.

However, I turned up at the school gates with an open mind and it was just as bad as I had feared! Very cliquey!

But, I think a lot depends on the school, Also, no one is at their best in that environment, especially during the morning rush.

Also, there is something about a group dynamic per se, with both men and women which can easily turn hostile. If there are any psychologists or anthropologists on the thread, I’d be interested to know why? But I have experienced the thing you mention at work where individuals can be perfectly pleasant one-to-one and then get really hostile around a meeting room table.

I guess it’s helpful to remember that everyone is insecure to a degree and therefore susceptible to a certain group dynamic.

As far as the school run goes; I found that there are always one or two nice mothers or fathers standing at the edges who are not part of any clique. And the best way to get to know people is on a one-to-one basis; so volunteer and get to know other individuals that way. Good luck!

I have 2 children, with the mums in my first child’s year group I would say I don’t know what you mean as the mums were all doing their own thing, some talked, some didn’t, but there were no undertones of nastiness to it at all.

With my second child the mums in their year group are horrible. There is a large clique of women who are constantly bitching, laughing at other mums - laughing at how they look, what they are wearing etc, side eyeing people, deliberately making people feel uncomfortable. I can’t wait until my child leaves the school.

If you want to make school mum friends, join the PTA. It never ceases to amaze me how many people think they will have tonnes of friends at the school gate but literally never strike up casual conversation or actively try to make friends.

I talk to the parents I went to baby groups woth, thst I help on the pta, that I volunteer with at school events, the woman sat next to me at school shows, the person stood alone at the school gate... and I hold down a full time job. Yet people (not aimed at you OP) continuously whine on mumsnet that they are excluded when they make no outboud effort and yet expect to have the world in their lap. You get out of life what you put in.

Before we use misogynist terms like "clique" can you tell me why chatting to mums you've met through baby groups is "cliquey"?

Then can you tell my why don't you talk to the mums you met at baby groups at the school gates?

Do you do much outside of your kids? Because it's a lot of headspace to even consider this when it's literally 10 mins twice a day in an otherwise full life. You aren't missing much. It's mostly awkward small talk.

Children tend to go to and from school on their own from a young age (age 6/7) where I am in Scotland so the school run was luckily never an issue for me. I never had time for chats and most parents would just say hi to eachother.