In thinking that progression at work is a myth?

People who moan constantly without showing any initiative are rarely promoted.

Oh this. I've a colleague who is constantly asking for a payrise, and I asked him, what do you actually do to merit it? He's proud of doing no more than the necessary and not volunteering for anything, and yet doesn't seem to realise that means he's not worth more than he's already paid. Same with promotion. You can't have it both ways.

Edited because it's definitely pay rise, not parish. We are not in the church.

It really does depend on where you work. I've seen absolute horrors apply for promotion and get it because they "Interview well" Though to be honest with most of these it seems more like an attempt to move them sideways, out of managers hair. It's known as The Peter Principle where difficult people are promoted to the level of their incompetence.

One of the greatest joys of my job, as a manager of a team, is encouraging my staff to develop their skills and move upwards and onwards. I work in a smallish industry and every time I've moved on, my old job has been filled with someone I trained at some point in my career. It's very satisfying. But the only way this is going to happen to you is to be in a company that allows you to take risks. People who moan constantly without showing any initiative are rarely promoted.

So what's the issue at your work, is it that there are no higher positions being opened, ever, or do they go to external candidates or what?

The triangle model is perfectly valid, you can't have an organisation with more senior managers than workers.

Our CEO (big household name company), and the one before him both joined straight out of uni and raised through the ranks over more than 25 years.

It takes more than being good at your job, you've got to be proactive, visible, enthusiastic, charismatic - some people just haven't got what it takes. But it's not impossible.

Not really sure what you mean. I've done well, but I've seen plenty of people get promoted who shouldn't have.

You're free to believe it.

Let's see how far this belief will get you career wise.

YABU and seemingly unlucky in your employers.

It entirely depends where you work.

I've been at the same place 20 years. Started straight out of university as a graduate and now I'm a director with as much seniority as I'd like for now.

DH started in a call centre straight out of university and stayed with that company 15 years, moving through teams getting trained on new things and steadily promoted to a senior position.

Good companies invest in and retain their best staff through good training, promotion prospects and development.

Having said that, poor companies can be just as you described! Find a better one!

Also a lawyer, and this is bang on.

Not buying it if you are speaking for everyone have progrssed because I pit the work in and dont play a professional victim, this woe is me every one against me attitude will not get anyone anywhere

I have no desire to climb a corporate ladder and could not be a manage so I have progressed into what I feel comfortable in

Often incompetent people get promoted because they say the right things, although in those cases it's probably not charisma, but talking crap to the relevant people and kissing butt

One thing that will almost certainly not result in promotion with is - is pissing people off, not building relationships within the team and outside the team, both senior and junior. Call it kissing butt and talking crap if you like but getting on with people does make a hell of a difference to the atmosphere in the workplace - people who seem to have a bad attitude constantly are a nightmare to work with.

We run a small company - people development is very important to us - not only does it help the individual but it makes our company more profitable. We spend a lot of time on our team helping them understand what they need to do to help them gain a promotion and helping them gain access to opportunities to develop these skills. Demonstrating you are brilliant at your current level isn't enough; they need to demonstrate they have the skills necessary to do the next level position - it's done on skills and ability.

Heh reminds me what happened during my last stint in retail.

We were suddenly left without a manager. Can't remember what happened, but manager disappeared.

My superviser at the time was temporarily placed on the manager role. My colleague, who was utterly brilliant, was placed in the superviser role (she was the only one who wanted to, but she really wanted it - youngest of the team, but by far the best for it ) .

They were both fantastic, especially my young colleague as superviser. She was on fire. Work became much more of a joy, everything was a lot more efficient and successful. Way higher profits too, everything felt much more relaxed all staff were doing well from it. It was a golden age.

We all felt for sure, that with it working better than ever, this would be made permanent and superviser and colleague would be promoted into those roles.

Nope.

After about 3 booming months, they brought in another manager, superviser was superviser again, and colleague was just regular staff again.

Young colleague was devastated. She worked so hard and rightly thought she had done a good job.

New manager was rubbish. Uncaring of staff and customers, over dramatic and - compared to the superviser and colleague - incompetent. Apparently she was already manager at another store so they just transferred her over, and brought in someone new externally for her old store.

I left just a few weeks later because she was awful. She accused me of stealing from the store - not to my face, not even going through official channels, but to my colleagues unkindly behind my back gossiping - due to regularly finding protein bar wrappers in the staff room bin after I'd been in there. It was my bloody lunch, from lunch time... and we didn't even sell those bars in the store (which is why she never saw me buying them, I'd bring them from home.)

All other staff, besides superviser (who still works for the company) quit within a few months.

Was just all so stupid. The store had it made. But promoting people is not what's done, apparently.

I agree with your last paragraph. Re your first it’s my experience that progression relies on nepotism or having a face that fits. I left my med size company for a small one for progression opportunities. Often frustrating but only way to move forward

I went from 60k to 200k in 9 years at a large plc. I also had a DC during that time.

I’m far from being alone in doing that where I work. People are promoted on merit. I’ve never seen any nepotism and no barriers to career progression for capable employees.

To be honest I have heard that it’s easier to get promoted by jumping to new companies. So whilst I agree that companies aren’t going to internally promote you without a ceiling, the opportunities for higher income can exist for you elsewhere.

2010 was a wildly different job market to 2025!

Yes, you're right. I should've been clearer. Often incompetent people get promoted because they say the right things, although in those cases it's probably not charisma, but talking crap to the relevant people and kissing butt 🤣

I've just gone up two pay grades at mine having smashed the interview for promotion.Change your workplace.

Of course it depends on how likeable you are. People want to work with people who make them feel good.

An interesting article here
The art of charisma

" In 2013 a hospital in Birmingham, UK, hired workers to help with a Christmas fundraising campaign. Some of the workers were given a charismatic induction speech, in which a professional actor told them they were doing “something special” and used his arms to make the point. Other workers were given a serviceable but less charismatic speech by the same man.

By the end, the workers who heard the charismatic speech had stuffed 17 per cent more envelopes than those who had heard the standard speech. Charisma had motivated them almost as much as the chance of a bonus

.....
Charlie Houpert, a charisma coach, told the Diary of a CEO podcast that, as a management consultant, he was given pay rises even though other analysts were better. His explanation was that his seniors liked him and wanted him to do well."

Some people have it, some don't. Those who don't believe the former ones do well because of nepotism.

Not my experience both personally or more widely within my organisation however 100%
visibility, networking, mentors and/or sponsors within the organisation advocating for you means that you are already on radar when opportunities become available.
You still have to apply and interview and actually be able to do the job - but I would say you get more leeway if your work is already known.
ERG's / Becoming a Champion or an advocate for something / asking to job shadow or for secondment or something also helps.

I have also found in the last 18 months that we have multiple people on the 27-32 ish age bracket who constantly want to know what's next, how do I progress but in reality are only doing their jobs at a very surface level and never think more widely or deeply about a topic, just want to be told exactly what to do step by step want you to make decisions for them and just do the "fun" parts of their jobs but want to go to next level and next level.
100% not all by any means of that generation, we also have some amazing talent with super work ethic.

If you are asking at are not getting opportunities that you are seeing others getting then it might be time to move on though

The routes absolutely do exist. Otherwise there wouldn't be anyone at the top. My shop floor to C-2 level example made it in 15 years.

The requirements are the same - intelligence, resilience, charisma, drive and ambition.

Before retiring last year I managed a reasonably big team. It's almost immediately obvious who will make it to the top and who won't, no matter which opportunities and support they are given.

"I have let managers know I want to progress, did a distance learning course at home and leadership course (at work), did some trial shifts on reception. They haven't led anywhere. "

It sounds like OP was given an opportunity with both training and trial with shifts on reception. I'm sorry to say but it's some kind of psychological self defence to make a conclusion here that there is no opportunity, it's much better for self esteem than to think that maybe they don't have required qualities to progress.

I think it varies from job to job and on a wide range of factors, but I suspect what you say is more common than people will admit. Because for various reasons they don’t want it to be true.

I have progressed at work but it’s been a scrap to do so. Then again, it possibly always feels like a scrap!

Isn't this life? Right place, right time, right face. Everything is all about who you know and how likeable you are, even at a very young age. I'm noticing this at Pre-school I'm sad to say. Life's not fair or equal, well rarely.

I think it depends hugely on the employer - they are not all equal.