To think this journalist from the independent is rather deluded ?

On record…by that do you mean covered in the Telegraph report? The entire incident has been reported to the paper by the mother, she says it’s on CCTV that they won’t release and has the emails apologising etc. If you mean the M&S response to the press, yes they didn’t disclose the store.

I didn’t see any contradictions, the mother seems to just want a reasonable policy implemented. I saw that she said she was browsing a gondola of bras near her daughter but not visible to the employee who approached from behind - they both heard a man’s voice and turned around - she offered to draw a diagram.

Well, “to question…” the employee approached the child to ask her a question while she was looking at bras.

“Withdrawing when the offer was declined” is notable in this instance for its contradictory nature to the approach. The worker has walked over to a girl quietly considering underwear, going out of their way, in a section they are not assigned to, to pull her out of the moment she was in. Then this arguably helpful and eager approach to customer service suddenly disappears when an adult surprises them. Not a word in response as acknowledgment as they walk away goes against basic manners, never mind proactive engagement.

It’s important to focus on the child’s status in this situation. That a young teen looking at bras isn’t the same as an adult in other sections of the shop.

Actually there’s no record of M&S saying anything about where the employee works. The only thing on the record is them saying their practice is that employees do not work in just one section.

The mother’s story is also riddled with contradictions - she says with certainty that the employee didn’t see her. But yet she saw the employee coming towards her, and was close by enough to hear the employees query and answer on her daughters behalf.

Asking a customer if they need any help isn’t ’questioning’ them. It is offering them help and withdrawing when the offer was declined.

@PlanetJanette the wording ‘proactively engage customers’ in clothing and homeware is not the same thing as ‘approach people who are browsing lingerie’ - much less go up to question a young teen in the underwear section. Even if M&S was reversing its decades long policy of not approaching browsing customers, yours or the Pink News response here doesn’t appear to give any consideration that a child looking at bras is not the same as an adult customer shopping for lamps or asking for different shoe styles. It’s like suggesting the wording of a job advert greenlights a child being approached by a male staff member to discuss her underwear needs.

I think it’s important to listen to the mum here. You’re saying the mum was stood next to the child - not according to the mum. The mum also never said anything about the employee offering a bra fitting. The employee also turned away without a word and left the area when the mum said no thanks, because they hadn’t realised the mum was there. No proactive engagement of the adult customer there.

M&S emailed the mum apologising and confirming that the employee not only doesn’t work on the lingerie floor but should have been in home or womenswear on a different floor. Later M&S ‘confirmation’ to press that staff “typically” work across all departments may be true, but its first response to the customer about this specific store interaction indicated an atypical situation.

Its newer line also leaves it up in the air whether children in its stores may be approached by its male staff to discuss underwear - hence a lot of pushback on the retailer. The mother wants a policy in place where male staff don’t approach teenage girls in the lingerie department. Seems odd that M&S can’t just say, obviously none of the men who work for us will approach teenage girls in the underwear department.

So much BS on this story.

Have a look at this from a live M&S advert for a customer assistant in clothing and homeware. One of the tasks is to: "Proactively engage with customers to understand their needs, make recommendations and deliver remarkable service throughout their visit to store." (emphasis is mine). So this employee was adhering to what M&S expects their customer service staff to do.

There is no suggestion that the employee offered to, or wanted to, or was even qualified to do a bra fitting as has been claimed.

The mother claims that she was stood close to her daughter. So the employee approached an adult and her child to ask if they needed help. In line with the expectations of M&S for their employees. And when they said no thank you, she left them to it.

Oh and the claims that the employee only worked in a different Department is also wide of the mark. M&S have confirmed that “We have written to this customer and explained that our colleagues typically work across all departments in our stores and customers can always ask to speak to the colleague they feel most comfortable with.”

Let's park the fact that it's not been confirmed that the employee was trans. That is besides the point. The point is that a trans employee approaching an adult and her teenage daughter to ask if they needed help (which can be anything from advice on products, directions, facilitating booking a fitting), in line with their employer's job description, and accepting it when they said no, is behaving entirely appropriately.

Maybe not store policy.
But they are old enough to consent and old enough to be uncomfortable.
And given that the journo brought up her DD in the first place its entirely relevant.

Whether she has a daughter or what the daughter thinks about it is irrelevant.

Teenagers aren’t best placed to decide sensible store policy.

Seems to be similar to John Gummer feeding his DD a burger during the BSE crisis.
Do we even know if the journo has a DD? And if so do we know what she thinks about it?

A man who worked on another floor and was not a lingerie assistant, approached a teenage girl who appeared to be alone, while she was looking at bras.

Be honest with yourselves, no man with innocent intentions would approach a lone teenage girl looking at underwear.

I’ve been buying bras for 40 years. No male staff member has ever approached me in the lingerie department of any store.

Regardless of this man’s intentions M&S should still offer an apology because he should be trained to understand that his actions were entirely inappropriate.

According to the mother, the child was looking at underwear and appeared to be alone (mother out of sight) when she was approached from behind by the employee - who she said they both knew was a man - asking the girl if she needed help. The mother seemingly showed herself to say “no, thanks” or similar and the employee quickly walked away with no response. The mother said the girl was upset to be asked by a man if she wanted help with underwear. These additional details were given by the mother on X. She emailed the company asking for a new policy whereby male staff don’t approach children about underwear and was given an apology and was told this particular staff member should have been in a different area of the store and does not work in the lingerie department. The underwear section in this store is on a different floor to the sections where the staff member works. Obviously many responding comments are centred around the fact M&S staff don’t approach customers - even in the departments they work in. This employee broke this policy to approach a young teen girl who wasn’t seeking help in the (obviously more sensitive) lingerie department, where they don’t actually work. Their response was unusual when the mother appeared. The devil is in the detail in this case.

The salami one might have been an issue

Where does it say the stuff member didn't work in the "lingery" department?

I've read several articles and none of them say that at all. The closest reference is "The staff member is said to work across various parts of the shop and is not involved in bra fittings."

I.e. as in most shops for the last few decades all sales assistants can work on every floor, there aren't specific "menswear sales assistants" "lingerie department sales assistant" "footwear sales assistants." They are rotated on where cover is needed. No evidence that that employee would be less (or more) knowledgeable than anyone else.

Because that is what big companies do automatically. They issue an apology. If you read what M&S actually said in their letter they make no reference to the gender of any staff. They just apologise in general terms.

“We deeply regret the distress your daughter felt during her visit to our store.
“We understand how important this milestone is for her, and we are truly sorry that it did not go as you had hoped.”

In those days (as I’m just about old enough to remember) goods were kept behind a counter, and the salesperson brought them out and showed them to you. I can still remember a saleswoman in a large dept. store showing handbags to my DF - he was buying one for DM for Christmas. He told the saleswoman one was ‘too grannyish’ - it was! - the price was 32/6d.

He bought a really lovely one that cost three guineas, so you can tell how long ago this was! I knew it was a lot, probably rather more than he could afford, but DM loved it and used it for years.

If the story isn’t as told by the mother, why did M&S apologise to the mother?

Surely it is not for the author to decide this. It is up to her daughter to decide if she is OK with someone doing a bra fitting.

But anyway this whole story is a storm in a teacup. Nobody actually knows if the staff member in question was transgender. And even if they were they were never going to be conducting a bra fitting. You have to make an appointment for that service at M&S and only certain trained members of staff can do it.

Last time anyone offered to help me in M&S was 1991, so baffled by this.

@JellySaurus Ah yes. The cognitive dissonance. There's a lot of it about. Made me laugh.

The issue is that by offering help to the child in a bra section is that the trans identifying bloke was sizing the child up as to what she might be trying to buy. That’s the issue. If the bloke was asking if they were interested in shoes or salami, or he was working behind the till there would be no issue.

We are about fifty years away from Are You Being Served?

In terms of shop floors, I work in retail, and it’s common practice to cover various departments and to offer assistance. Our changing rooms are unisex and we have male and female employees working in them, all we do is offer help in fetching different sizes. There’s no malicious intent here. However the only people in lingerie fitting rooms will be people with bra fitting training and experience.

I would assume all bra fitting employees have had the relevant training and employers wouldn’t choose anyone to do the role if they had suspicions over conduct and abusing their position.

My teenage dd would have said the same. She would also have said that of course a TW should be allowed to do bra-fittings. Dd was (still is) entirely Koolaided.

But given how upsetting she found bra-fitting even with women fitters, and given her rabbit-in-the-headlights expression while we queued among men inside a 'cubicles' toilet, while simultaneously saying how wonderful this was, it is entirely obvious that she would simply have been reciting the required catechism.

Dd tries so hard to believe the catechism while suffering the cognitive dissonance of being entirely aware of the biological basis of misogyny.

Not the point, I know, but who has ever been offered help in M&S while just going through the rails looking for one in the right size?

During decades of buying bras at M&S, starting when I was about 14 (on my own) I never have!

Her consent is not mine.

But this staff member didn't work in the lingery department, so really wouldn't have known any of the stock and wouldn't have been able to help.

So why did he offer his assistance? Why was he in the lingery section when he didn't work there - and MandS have clarified that he didn't.

And indeed, why offer any assistance at all? I shop in MandS quite often, and I have NEVER had a staff member approach me to ask if I needed help finding anything. Does this sales assistant generally aporoach customers offering help?

What a mess the article is - probably was just a tall woman ie women can't tell by looking if a person in a skirt is a man or a woman; it's totally normal that a random MandS staff member will offer to help you, even when it's not a department they work in, and so wouldn't have any idea of the stock; that MandS would give exactly the same apology if a white customer complained about being approached by a black staff member.

The papers really will publish any old shite, especially on this issue - yeah for the Independent, super allyship.