To think this journalist from the independent is rather deluded ?

M&S confirmed to the mother he shouldn't have been there. He should have been on another floor entirely.

Its not M&S policy to offer help unprompted either.

It certainly shouldn't be any store's policy for male staff to approach young girls, unprompted, while shopping for bras and ask if they need 'help'.

By trying to cast this as 'transphobia' you are facilitating predatory behaviour by men, with a teenage girl as the victim. Can people please wake up and apply their common sense here?

The girl was there. She was approached by a strange man in the lingerie department, and she felt threatened.

A man who thought she was alone, and who didn't work in that department, in a shop where the policy is to be available, but not to approach customers. That's 3 little bells ringing already, and I trust the girl to know when she's being made to feel uncomfortable.

Just like there are times when a man has approached me and it's been fine, and other times a man has approached me and it felt off.

It is common practice for staff to cover multiple departments and areas. It really is getting to the point where simply offering customer assistance isn’t ok by some people now.

Shop layouts can be confusing so offering basic help, regardless of shop area, is basic customer service.

I am calling this out for what it is, transphobia.

I work in retail, we have male colleagues in the prep area behind the scenes working deliveries. That includes unpacking and handling bras and underwear.

We have male colleagues specialised in baby car seats and working in the children’s departments.

Being male or female, trans or not, has no effect on their ability to do their job. Believe me, colleagues would talk and report if there was any concern over a colleague.

I’m not a man and have never needed to be fitted by anyone other than my mum for my first bra many years ago. I’d have probably coped on my own but mums tend to like being involved.

I think context is everything here. Obviously if he was approaching her in a darkened corner and asking her how big her new breasts were and what type of bra would suit them, that is grotesque. If on the other hand he merely asked if she needed any help - how is that predatory? She was in total control as to what went on after that - asking for a female assistant, where the changing rooms were, or a simple. “No thank you” would have ended their interaction or God forbid helped her in the purpose of finding underwear. He wasn’t going to grab her by the wrist, march her behind a curtain and rip her clothes off. Wasn’t he just asking if he could be of any help? He should be nowhere near the changing rooms but the shop floor, what’s the problem?

Awful article. Urgh.

Male staff members should never, ever approach young women or girls in a lingerie department. My blood boils at the thought. Well done to that mum for protecting her daughter. It surprises me that M&S apologised, if have thought them more woke as an organisation so that at least is refreshing.

And employees never act contrary to how they should? If this person has, isn't that just another red flag rather than an excuse?

I'm 5' tall - I'm hidden behind the stands in clothes shops by virtue of that - it's easy for someone to see one person, but not another when shopping FGS - that's why it's so useful now that my son is getting taller, my younger son and I can finally find him in shops when we've all wandered off and lost each other.

I think you're mixing up who said what, and who was doing what TBH - although also, I don't think it matters if she saw him when he came up, or only when she heard his voice - it's the approach that was innapropriate

The teen quote sounds like the teen version of that posh mum skit where mums boast about their toddlers saying extremely profound implausible statements

There’s an awful lot of people who choose not to see a sacred caste possibly perving on teens, isn’t there? When I’m looking out for my daughters, I choose to err on the side of protecting them, rather than potential paedos. If I make a mistake by being overprotective, it’s a bloody damn sight better than being wrong in the other direction. Men perving on teens is hardly a rarity, is it? Not in a shop, not in a frock, not buying a bra, not buying a sock.

Also rolling my eyes at the accompanying photo. Have we gone back to 1987?

Oh come on

Would you honestly have been comfortable with any of that when you were a teenage girl?

Would you really be comfortable with a man looking through the bras with you and discussing your bra size with a man as an adult woman.

Ofcourse you may be a male poster - because that’s the only way I can account for such wilful naivety.

I was thinking this. It could have been offering to help as in find a particular bra in her size or colour preference, or locate a woman who is available to carry out a bra fitting. As long as he stayed out the changing rooms what’s the problem?

What is not beside the point is that an employee - regardless of sex - asking an adult and her teenage daughter if they need help and withdrawing when the help is declined is perfectly normal customer service

No. A man approaching a 14 year old girl, unprompted, in the lingerie department when she's shopping for bras, asking her if she needs 'help' is not normal customer service at all.

We all know that, including you,

Regardless M&S do not have a policy of approaching their customers unprompted. The policy is allowing 'peaceful browsing' and offering help if asked.

I have been in a shop with my teenage daughter standing two feet away behind a rack as a man approached her and started asking her questions. I could plainly see them both but he didn’t see me. As soon as I emerged saying “excuse me” he immediately walked away without a word.

He was a customer, not an employee, and he was old, she could have outrun him no problem.

But it was still a really creepy experience for her and she hasn’t returned to that store since.

It's the independent(irony much) so the term journalist is moot.

By on the record I mean quoted from the M&S email. Because what the mother is claiming is contrary to how M&S says it operates.

As for the offer to draw a diagram I’m not sure how that changes the basic contradiction between the mothers certainty that the employee could not see her but also her statement that she could see the employee come over. Also she needs to get her story straight - she simultaneously claims she saw the employee approach and that the first perception of the employee was hearing their voice. Which is it?

Of course this is all beside the point. What is not beside the point is that an employee - regardless of sex - asking an adult and her teenage daughter if they need help and withdrawing when the help is declined is perfectly normal customer service.

No, male shop assistants do not approach women in the lingerie department.

If a male M&S staff member approached me while in the lingerie department I would complain to the store. It’s not in any way appropriate.

It is highly inappropriate for a man to approach a teenage girl in a lingerie department. You are being disingenuous to suggest that it is not.

People absolutely are up in arms because a man approached a lone teenager in the lingerie department.

Regarding what the mother has “taught er daughter to be afraid of”. I’m would assume like all good parents she has taught her daughter that men can be very, very dangerous and to treat men approaching her in inappropriate ways with extreme caution.

The fact that the man was presenting himself as a woman does compound the problem. Again you are disingenuous (or terribly naive) to say it does not. There are men who present as women who find sexual thrill in forcing women and girls to participate in their fetish.

That may not have been the case with this man, but he should be more aware than most about why he should have stayed well away from this customer.

And for the previous poster who asked how the mother could be far away enough for the girl to seem alone but close enough to hear. This is not a unique scenario. This is something men do.

Which is fine in a way. With staff being almost non existent in many shops they have to cross areas. But personally I, as a man, feel uncomfortable with the idea of a man working in the lingerie department whether trans or not. I feel uncomfortable in entering the area in case a woman thinks I'm checking out what sort of underwear she wears... for a biological man to approach a teenage girl in such an area makes me very uneasy

Men who want to prey on women and girls don't put on a wig and dress to do it. They just bloody do it. Surely we all know that.

Who says the person was in a wig and dress? Female M&S employees also wear trousers.

And no, they don't have to put on a wig and dress to do it - but - if putting on a wig and dress makes them feel good (euphemism) then the next step is to escalate to involving women in that.

The thing is, the girl was distressed because a man approached her in the lingerie department. Nothing more needs to be said.

We all make snap judgements when strangers approach us - do they seem safe and calm, is this an appropriate approach, do they have those 'shiny eyes' that suggest over-interest/some creepy intention etc.

This girl assessed the situation, and felt alarm. And that is fine.

Because a man (no matter his fashion choices or internal feelings), approaching a child in the lingerie department and offering help already sets off a couple of alarm bells, without taking his unknown demeanour into account

edit. I've spent my fair share of time browsing the M&S lingerie dept. I don't think I've ever been asked if I need help, let alone by a man. And yes, as a grown woman, if a male shop assistant approached me there, I would immediately be on guard in a way that I wouldn't be if a woman did. His trans status would be irrelevant. It's his sex that makes me wary

Yes. It’s the same journalist featured in this stiry where she mentions an older sister.
www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/passport-renewal-child-uk-12-weeks-b2086029.html

Journalist doesn’t know about euphoria boners.

Absolutely shocking piece in the Insependent. Imagine caring so little about your daughter's boundaries?

There is a lot of supposition in your post.
And no need to slide "Cis" in like you have done.

If the shop assistant was a man who presented as a man, this wouldn't ever hit the papers. The mum and daughter would have said no, and moved on. Male shop assistants in clothes stores surely ask women of all ages if they need assistance all the time, including in lingerie or bra sections.

Especially as in many stores, assistants are told they HAVE to offer assistance to anyone who looks lost.

If a man who looked like a man who was obviously a shop assistant came up to any of us in the lingerie section and offered help, we'd just say no and (likely rightly) assume he was just doing his job, and understand that he must not have realised we were there for a bra fitting (because how could he? Ime lingerie sections have bras, pants, socks, pyjamas, night gowns, all sorts unrelated to bra fittings )

That's the transphobia and what's irrational here. People arnt all up in arms because a male employee offered assistance in the lingerie department. No one would give a flying fuck about that. They're up in arms because a trans employee offered assistance in the lingerie department .

If that young teen girl was more scared of the scenario than she would have been going to a male doctor/having a male lifeguard at the pool/any other manner of things that involve men, then that's because she's been taught to fear trans people specifically - and, as far as I know, men who are not trans ("cis") are way more dangerous to girls and women than trans people.

It's more likely that her strong reaction was because first bras can be embarrassing and nerve wracking... And pearl clutching mum has just made it worse.

Men who want to prey on women and girls don't put on a wig and dress to do it. They just bloody do it. Surely we all know that.

The Indy is much, much worse than the Guardian (which has shown a few green shhots lately from individual writers, but I don't think the editorial line will change under the current leadership).