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Economically inactive people……

235 replies

Watermelonnice · 02/08/2025 18:23

AIBU to think that the government needs to clarify who they mean when they say that they want to reduce the number of people who are economically inactive?

And to think they need to differentiate between the reasons for economic inactivity, including providing numbers who fall into each category.

It’s lazy to make this a headline without taking into account the different reasons and specifying who they mean.

Presumably they mean people who are unemployed, but economically inactive could include students, carers, disabled people, stay at home parents and those who have retired early.

Some will be reliant on the state for support but many will be completely self reliant and not claiming a thing from the government.

Why aren’t the government clearer on who they mean? Do they think they’ll persuade people who have retired early and others who have enough income without claiming any benefits to restart work?

OP posts:
AlertEagle · 03/08/2025 10:00

WeylandYutani · 03/08/2025 00:52

No they have been assessed as having limited capability to work.

But thats bs, I wrote this because I have seen it with my own eyes. I personally know 2 people who have no mental health issues but claim uc and do not work but they are perfectly fine, they just dont want to work. One of them has never worked a day in their life.

ViciousCurrentBun · 03/08/2025 09:59

Ultimately for all the working years any of us have there is a number that equates to all the tax and NI we have ever paid. There is also a number harder to quantify and that is the amount any of us have taken out of the system by using public services and by claiming benefits.

We were net contributors for around 30 years. The increasing hostility towards the better off and calls for taxing them even more when you are one of the people paying loads in taxes is irritating.

itsanothernamechangeone · 03/08/2025 09:17

My mum is economically inactive I’d say. Early 60s, stopped working late 50s to spend more time with my dad who is older. Now cares for him, has a tiny pension from a previous career (£200 a month - used as pocket money), dad’s good final salary pension pays the bills.

5128gap · 03/08/2025 09:05

I think it is clear. They want to reduce the numbers in ALL categories, including people who are ill, disabled, carers and older. The principle isn't a bad one as it suggests measures that will remove barriers so that everyone has an opportunity to be EA in accordance with their abilities and finding a way around any restriction Unfortunately these measures have been tried many times by successive governments and are almost always poorly executed, with more effort going into implementing consequences than into removing barriers.

financialcareerstuff · 03/08/2025 08:59

@VanessaFenceyes indeed- thank you. I don’t think contradictory to what I said - I think it is somewhat included in the growth element I mentioned, but a very enriching addition, and I agree.

Mischance · 03/08/2025 08:55

The simple fact that if there are not enough people paying tax then services will suffer is clear.

The point I am making is that many of those not out at work are providing the services that the government cannot afford (or does not prioritise) whilst also paying taxes.

So we are doing both - paying taxes and plugging the gaps in services for free.

VanessaFence · 03/08/2025 08:44

@financialcareerstuff you're conflating two things here.

There's one set of maths which looks at whether or not someone is a net contributor to government finances. In this case a very wealthy retiree may look positive (assuming they're not using the NHS etc.) and a full time carer would be negative.

There's another set of maths which looks at whether or not someone is a contributor to the economic output of the country in terms of goods and services produced. In this case a wealthy retiree would be zero. I would argue a full time carer is not because the job they're doing could be a paid role if they were caring for someone not related to them.

There are lots of jobs which are very high in terms of economic output (e.g. farmer) but low in terms of wages and therefore tax receipts. We massively underestimate the importance of these roles in our economy. We could survive as a nation of farmers, we could not survive as a nation of wealthy retirees.

It's important to also understand where the money for private pensions comes from. It comes primarily from things like the stock market. Growth in the stock market comes from growth in economic output (i.e. people working).

FortheloveofCheesus · 03/08/2025 08:33

Financialcareerstuff excellent post

No one is challenging specific groups and saying "you are a scrounger" or "you must work".

We are saying the maths does not work having such a huge proportion of working age people not in paid full time work.

A degree of it is demographic - the current boomer cohort was very big and are now primarily retired and in ill health, which is a drain on state resource as they are heavy NHS/care users. Lots also had generous public sector backed DB pensions which are expensive for the government to be funding.

When that generation die it should ease the burden BUT you then have the issue that there are some very small generations coming behind as people are having fewer children

VanessaFence · 03/08/2025 08:31

This is what politicians do. Build narrative around words that are largely meaningless.
I would argue that no one is economically inactive.

Perhaps this is an unhelpful term but we do need to have a term that references the fact that we have a lot of people not working. We're relying on a smaller and smaller percentage of the population to produce the goods and services we need which is causing a lot of our problems.

I don't think it's particularly helpful to focus on early retirees as we have so many young people who either can't find a job, can't be arsed to find a job or are employed in low productivity roles (e.g. recent graduates working part time at Costa). We need to fix this first.

OutHereSisters · 03/08/2025 08:21

I thought it meant people who don't pay tax. The number of net contributors to the tax system is absolutely tiny 😐😡

financialcareerstuff · 03/08/2025 08:16

I do think there is a bit of missing the point on this thread, which I understand due to the judgemental rhetoric used sometimes to talk about this challenge….. resulting in lots of people posting to justify their existence and show that they and others are not lazy or not of value/contributing. I don’t think that’s the key point.

the key point is on a systemic level. So yes, on carers, while each individual is doing a great thing morally and working extremely hard by caring for somebody, that is millions of people not paying taxes, not paying national insurance, and receiving a caring allowance, alongside the person they are caring for, who generally is also costing the state a lot. The idea that this is saving the government money is only based on the assumption that it’s the government’s job to meet all costs and needs of its citizens. While I think the state supporting people as best they can is something to be celebrated, I think somebody who has chosen to have a child, whose child needs extra care, feeling they are doing the government a favour economically and therefore ‘contributing’ by providing that care at a non-commercial rate, takes things a little far. This is actually just as true for any parent of any child. No government on the planet, promises to meet every need and cost of every child - so the parent is not doing an economic favour to the state by providing that child with some of the care (alongside the school and nhs and child benefit, carers benefit etc that the government does manage).

systemically, it’s pretty simple. The state only has the money paid to it by its citizens through taxes. It then pays out that money to cover some of the costs of its citizens being educated, kept healthy, kept safe etc…… if the first amount is less than the second amount, the country gets into more and more debt. Boosting the first amount can be done long term through growth, innovation etc. short term it can be done by raising taxes, but beyond a certain level this tends to stunt growth. The second amount (money going out), is influenced by a huge number of things - the health of people, how they age, the government’s efficiency, and how much the state attempts to support etc. .

Having this many adults non economically active (ie not producing growth/ wealth, and mostly not putting money in, while also taking money out) creates a big problem with the maths - regardless of moral issues or the value and character of any individual.

Where things tend to go wrong is when we try to turn this maths into a tug if war of moral judgement….. ideas of people being lazy/scroungers etc….. or equally, condemning high earners who are contributors as heartless, privileged people who wouldn’t know suffering if it slapped them in the face.

actual changes that change the maths however are necessary if we want the country to flourish…. Whether that be improving the population’s overall mental and physical health so they need less care, or boosting their education and capacity to innovate and become productive, or shifting the country’s ideology towards being more highly redistributive (ie raising taxes for rich), or by contrast, increasing or decreasing immigration, declaring the state has a more limited responsibility for people’s needs than before, grabbing a share of the global pie for major growth areas through incentives etc etc…… generally government is always trying to come up with some kind of winning cocktail.

they then try to justify these hard decisions through political rhetoric that will get people on board…. Whether it is anti immigration, anti scroungers, or anti rich folk….. and the population bounce around like ping pong balls judging each other….

I think we would do much better to simply look at the maths….

CaptainMyCaptain · 03/08/2025 08:16

mylittlekomododragon · 03/08/2025 08:05

@FourIsNewSixEarly retiree here who definitely pays tax on her pension!

Me too. I get my state pension too now and my tax bill went up.

CaptainMyCaptain · 03/08/2025 08:15

FortheloveofCheesus · 03/08/2025 07:13

I think that actually students need to be looked at as well.
The push to extend education and make people get university degrees for jobs where they are not actually required takes a huge number of people out of the workforce during what could be some of their most economically useful years.

Agree

Also students don't seem to work any more? Most people i knew either had a term time job or worked every vacation. As a uni student worked long hours in a factory every summer, pub shifts over Christmas and Easter. Whereas now students all seem to swan off on holiday every time the term ends.

The government need to make is easier for business to hire 16 year olds too. The ones i know are all desperate for part time jobs but no one will hire them. Why is this? When i was 16 everyone worked, in shops, pubs, petrol stations, anywhere.

My grandchildren at university have both had part time jobs since 16 and work during term time and vacations. Their private school educated friends with wealthy parents don't.

Mischance · 03/08/2025 08:08

Our local and wider community runs on the time gifted by the economically inactive.
I am retired and I:

  • pay tax
  • run a community choir
  • run a local arts festival
  • look after grandchildren
  • support the local school with fundraising for basics and being a governor
  • work with others to fund raise for local amenities: we created a playground, run coffee mornings for isolated people with health advice etc on tap
  • volunteer with national schemes ... e.g. reading support for children.

The list goes on......

I hate this dismissive phrase "economically inactive". We plug the gaps in state provision. We are not sitting on our backsides doing nothing.

mylittlekomododragon · 03/08/2025 08:05

@FourIsNewSixEarly retiree here who definitely pays tax on her pension!

CornflowerDusk · 03/08/2025 07:51

Watermelonnice · 02/08/2025 18:23

AIBU to think that the government needs to clarify who they mean when they say that they want to reduce the number of people who are economically inactive?

And to think they need to differentiate between the reasons for economic inactivity, including providing numbers who fall into each category.

It’s lazy to make this a headline without taking into account the different reasons and specifying who they mean.

Presumably they mean people who are unemployed, but economically inactive could include students, carers, disabled people, stay at home parents and those who have retired early.

Some will be reliant on the state for support but many will be completely self reliant and not claiming a thing from the government.

Why aren’t the government clearer on who they mean? Do they think they’ll persuade people who have retired early and others who have enough income without claiming any benefits to restart work?

This is what politicians do. Build narrative around words that are largely meaningless.

I would argue that no one is economically inactive.

Fifthtimelucky · 03/08/2025 07:47

bindin · 02/08/2025 18:59

Do they think they’ll persuade people who have retired early and others who have enough income without claiming any benefits to restart work?

I pretty sure the ones who retired early are from lower incomes but it's due to ill health.

I retired early. I am now 64 and I have a reasonable occupational pension. My husband, who is 10 years older, has a better occupational pension and a state pension. We both pay income tax and I am also making voluntary NI contributions to make up for the years I lost by retiring early.

There are no health reasons preventing me from going back to work, but I’m afraid I have no intention of doing so.

Mavvera · 03/08/2025 07:40

I don't think a lot of the jobs that need filling are in the private sector, they seem to be getting rid of people. They maybe want early retired teachers to get back in the classroom.

Aprilrainagainagain · 03/08/2025 07:40

I have a friend who has three children none of which work as in pay any kind of tax. Two make things to sell on Etsy but she says it’s very little. They contribute nothing to the household and she has to maintain them. Her third child is an artist although he doesn’t produce any income. They range from 22 to 29. Her husband works freelance in the film industry. He hasn’t had any income for 18 months and makes no effort to get work. She is working full time and occasionally works another job to bring in money.

If I was her I’d leave and let them all be creative and homeless. Utter wastes of space.

echt · 03/08/2025 07:34

According to this, job vacancies are falling for the third year in a row, so not sure how all the economically inactive can be taken on. Yes, I get that full employment doesn't mean everyone has a paid job: Australia had it for a microsecond earlier this year.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg754negn75o

A woman with long black hair in two plaits wearing a black beanie hat, khaki hoodie and navy quilted bodywarmer working as a mechanic with her oil covered hands inside the engine of a car with its bonnet up

UK jobs market weakens as unemployment rate rises

The official data shows wage growth has slowed while the number of vacancies continues to fall.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg754negn75o

BusMumsHoliday · 03/08/2025 07:31

FortheloveofCheesus · 03/08/2025 07:18

Whereas now students all seem to swan off on holiday every time the term ends
Do you have any evidence for this?

Student nieces and nephews, plus working for a business which used to have lots of students each summer and now has none.

I work in a university. Lots of students work. Some in holidays, some in term time, some doing nearly full time hours to stay afloat. I don't think they're "economically inactive." Plus, we need them to be studying so that we have the "net contributors" of the future not to mention the drs, nurses, teachers that we need. Also, as they are now paying their fees, they're not getting "supported by the state".

I think the large number of economically inactive people (and I also hate this term) is a short term problem. We've got a number of people in their early 60 who were able to pay off mortgages, save and have pension in final salary schemes. That won't be the case in future years.

echt · 03/08/2025 07:27

FortheloveofCheesus · 03/08/2025 07:21

Do you have any evidence that older people have this view about not being able to find a job?

This is a forum. Im allowed to share opinions based on anecdata, what older friends/ neighbours say. I also get lots of older people applying for very senior/highly paid roles in my team but their skills are outdated, they no longer have the skills to keep up with younger applicants. They never apply for the lower paid roles we have, only ever the ones on top pay and recruiters tell me its hard to explain to older people that 30 years experience doesn't entitle them to the senior roles.

So why didn't you say that instead of "A lot of older people will say they can't find a job because they are expecting to stay at the same seniority and high pay they attained in their 40s"? The context of the firm you work would be useful. It turns "a lot" into "some I've encountered in my work".

Presenting anecdote as fact is very unhelpful.

Chocja · 03/08/2025 07:24

Without Making retrospective changes to private pensions and ISAs, I find it hard to think how they are going to force the independently wealthy back to work.

This is something I have been aiming for and yes it is selfish on a grand level, I don’t want to be working in a job that I don’t love until I’m 68.

I won’t be claiming benefits when the time comes and no children so I won’t be looking after grandkids either.

I might do a part time role IF there is something that I would enjoy but why would anyone want to work a long week in a job that they don’t enjoy for money if they don’t need to?

FortheloveofCheesus · 03/08/2025 07:21

Do you have any evidence that older people have this view about not being able to find a job?

This is a forum. Im allowed to share opinions based on anecdata, what older friends/ neighbours say. I also get lots of older people applying for very senior/highly paid roles in my team but their skills are outdated, they no longer have the skills to keep up with younger applicants. They never apply for the lower paid roles we have, only ever the ones on top pay and recruiters tell me its hard to explain to older people that 30 years experience doesn't entitle them to the senior roles.

echt · 03/08/2025 07:19

FortheloveofCheesus · 03/08/2025 07:18

Whereas now students all seem to swan off on holiday every time the term ends
Do you have any evidence for this?

Student nieces and nephews, plus working for a business which used to have lots of students each summer and now has none.

Anecdata. Lay off the sweeping generalisations then.

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