Was the ‘race card’ pulled??

I think we may be talking cross-purposes.

I wasn’t saying what you did was ‘fundamentally and profoundly racist’, but referencing a post that seems intent on grouping people into “tribes” based on skin colour irrespective of whether they have any other similarities or common ground, and using that as a basis for agitating for against “whiteness”.

@Lavenderflower

Interesting and thought-provoking post… However, I think it is nonetheless very flawed.

The fact that, on average, Black people of African heritage do as well or better than White English students, and Black people of Caribbean heritage do worse than White English students demonstrates unequivocally that, whatever the cause of the difference may be, it can’t be ethnicity or race!

To put more starkly, if Black people from one background do better than White British people, and Black people from another background do worse than White British people, it’s an obvious logical fallacy to say that the primary reason that the second group performed worse is that society is skewed against Black people. Rather there must be other, more complex and nuanced factors at play.

And yet, despite this, your response nonetheless implores Black people to show solidarity and stick together, despite not necessarily sharing experiences of inequality, backgrounds or cultures, and corral them together into a single group whose only common denominator is their skin colour… and then pit them in an existential battle against “whiteness”, as personified by the White British population.

This unmasks the whole philosophy, and exposes that it’s not really about it social justice and equality at all… but rather is all about promoting tribal allegiance based on racial identity in its most basic, crudest form… skin colour.

I’d argue that this philosophy is fundamentally and profoundly racist in its conception (using the standard, matter-of-fact, definition of the word).

@GoodPudding no worries , thanks for clarifying. 🙂

Apologies @Tambora … this was in response to @Tandora !

I think you have tagged me by mistake? I haven't posted on this thread.

Above post sounds like an AI generated essay. If I was a sociology lecturer being handed this I’d be a bit suspicious.

The disparity in educational attainment between Black Caribbean and Black African pupils can be critically examined through the lens of the model minority myth. Commonly applied to East and South Asian communities, this myth portrays certain ethnic groups as inherently more successful due to cultural traits such as discipline or work ethic. When applied to Black African pupils, it risks pathologising Black Caribbean communities by framing educational outcomes as a result of cultural inferiority rather than structural inequality.

The myth is also frequently used to dismiss or deny structural racism by implying that success is entirely based on individual effort. This can lead to dangerous conclusions, such as blaming Black Caribbean pupils for their lower educational outcomes while ignoring the institutional and societal barriers they face. Furthermore, it overlooks the fact individuals from African background, despite higher academic performance, often encounter significant barriers in employment due to racial discrimination.

Additionally, the model minority myth fails to consider important factors like migration patterns. In some countries, immigrants tend to come from middle or upper socioeconomic backgrounds, often bringing educational capital with them. In contrast, other immigrant groups may come from working-class or disadvantaged backgrounds. These differences can significantly affect educational outcomes and opportunities.

To understand the current experiences of Black Caribbean pupils, it is essential to consider the lasting impact of colonialism and class structures in Caribbean societies. During European colonial rule, the Caribbean was organised into rigid class systems. At the top were white colonial elite’s plantation owners and merchants. Beneath them was the mixed-race or coloured middle class, who had limited access to education and property. At the bottom were the majority of the population: enslaved Africans and their descendants, who were forced into brutal labour and denied basic rights.

Even after slavery was abolished, this hierarchy did not disappear. Access to wealth, education, and land remained concentrated in the hands of a few, while most Afro-Caribbean and Indo-Caribbean people continued to be economically and socially marginalised. These deeply entrenched class divisions, shaped by slavery and colonial exploitation, still influence Caribbean societies and diaspora communities today.

One of the most overlooked but important consequences of this history is its impact on family structures. The transatlantic slave trade and plantation system disrupted traditional African family systems. Enslaved people were denied the right to legally marry, and families were frequently separated. As a result, matrifocal (female-headed) households became common; a pattern that still persists in many Caribbean communities. The high rate of single-parent families is as a legacy of historical trauma, economic exclusion, and systemic violence imposed through centuries of slavery and colonialism. The Caribbean and America are plantation and colonial societies and this still reflected in modern society.

In summary, invoking the model minority myth to explain differences in attainment between Black African and Black pupils is both reductive and harmful. It reinforces racialised hierarchies, deflects attention from structural inequalities, and ignores the historical and socio-economic contexts that continue to these. Furthermore, the model minority myth serves as a divide and conquer tactic, positioning one racial group as a ‘success story to implicitly criticise another. This undermines solidarity and deflects attention from the structural inequalities that affect different marginalised groups. By promoting a racialised hierarchy of achievement, it reinforces existing power structures and weakens collective efforts to challenge systemic racism.

@Ilovelurchers

It’s completely disingenuous only to use the facts that support your position, and discard those that don’t as being inaccurate (without evidence!)

Government data shows that Black men are disproportionately more likely to be stopped and searched.

Government data also shows that Black men are disproportionately more likely to be perpetrators of knife crime.

The two figures are broadly similarly disproportionate which, on the face of it, appears reasonable.

You can’t reasonably use one data set to prove your point, but dismiss the other because it doesn’t.

And I was very clear that I did NOT believe that high levels of knife crime seen in Black men mean that Black men are inherently more violent. To repeat, I do NOT believe this.

But to explain this knife crime phenomenon as caused by systemic racism, and place the blame onto those who supposedly are responsible for this, the White British, is completely wrongheaded. It’s divisive and deflecting.

That’s a complete and utter misrepresentation of what I posted! Libelous even!

Why what's wrong with it? or do you not like people having opposing opinions to you?

Just looked at some more of the thread. Horrifying. I am a partucular fan of the eugenecist woman, who more or less "proves" that black people are ",more violent" (by sharing statistics around knife crime). but then, because she is not a racist (oh no, not she!) generously concedes it may be down to "culture" instead. Which obviously isn't a racist thing to say, at all.....

Becayse, obviously, crime statistics accurately reflect actual crime committed, don't they? (And rape and abuse are very rare crimes....)

I mean that's only one example - impossible to know where to start on a thread like this.

I have reported it tho. I think it's dodgy as fuck. OP doesn't sound like she is the sort to stand mildly vu while someone supports her in the airport. And I see know evidence in any of her responses that she is genuinely considering whether she could, in fact, be in the wrong. Strongly feel like OP just wants a platform to air her racist views, and it's probably best not to give her on, hard tho it is to ignore these rantings.

How has the titile or this thread been allowed to stand? Has anybody complained about it? (I am going to do so now).

You described yourself as Latino, I think.

This pyramid of privilege has passed me by too, but I guess that’s because of my privilege.

Just because there are some statistics that show worse outcomes for certain situations for some races versus white British counterparts

“Some statistics”? The statistics are pervasive , consistent ,
cross-sectoral and stark with highly predictable patterns.
Of course racism isn’t the only factor and there are nuances- it doesn’t follow that racism isn’t any factor, or that racism is not structural.

“worse outcomes” - you think the police being 6.5x more likely to strip search a black child is an “outcome” and “correlation does not equal causation”. Nothing to see here?

I don’t know why I’m even bothering with this to be honest. On the one hand you seek to minimise and explain away stark objective evidence.
On the other , your motivations are clear- you are angry at the perceived “denigration” of white people caused by the simple acknowledgment of the realities of structural racism and how it harms racialised minorities.

My post at 22:39 addresses your points I believe.

As for implying blame toward individuals for experiencing oppression, I don’t believe I’ve said or implied anything of the sort! To confirm, I’m happy to agree with you that no one should ever be blamed for experiencing oppression….

@tambora

And as for the disproportionate number of Black people who are searched by Police, Black people commit a disproportionate amount of knife crime, so there will be many more incidents where Police will have just cause to search Black people!

In a shocking statistic from the London Assembly in 2022, a report stated that 61% of knife crime in London is committed by Black people, despite that they only comprise 13% of the population.

Now an obvious conclusion might be that this is the case because Black people are simply a more violent race…. But I’m not a racist and I disagree with that conclusion… I believe the causes are more complex and likely relate to culture. If it were due to poverty or lack of opportunity, and a systemically racist society, the numbers would be similarly high for other ethnic groups, but they’re not.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Just because there are some statistics that show worse outcomes for certain situations for some races versus white British counterparts, it doesn’t follow that “racism” is necessarily the cause, especially as there are all sorts of other comparisons which point in other direction.

For instance, Black African pupils generally show strong educational outcomes, particularly at the GCSE level and in higher education, often exceeding national averages. However, there are also notable differences between Black African and Black Caribbean pupils, with the latter often experiencing lower attainment and progression rates.

Also, according to the ONS in 2024, arrest rates for Bangladeshi, Indian, Arab and Chinese people were lower per capita than their White British counterparts.

Those are just two examples, but they show how the picture is a lot more nuanced than your post presumes, and indicates that “racism”, and specifically racism conceived as a societal structure set up by indigenous White British to favour themselves over other races, is not a hypothesis supported even by a high degree of correlation, let evidence of alone causation.

In other words, the evidence suggests there’s something else at play, and blaming racism without considering other causes is not just demonstrably wrong, but by giving the wrong diagnosis, it makes it harder for the issues that do exist to be resolved successfully…. This just causes more harm to affected POC, all whilst causing racial tension and resentment.

My hypothesis is that the root of these issues is cultural, not racial, and that there are facets of all cultures which contribute to success and failure. The example of Black African versus Black Caribbean educational attainment is an excellent example of this I believe.

I believe the answer therefore is for communities (and that includes White British communities who are are struggling and failing compared to others from different backgrounds in many areas) to seek answers and solutions by being more introspective and honest about their own issues, being prepared learn from others where necessary, rather than automatically seeking to blame others, especially the divisive claim that another race (White British) has supposedly contrived to set up a society to thwart them!

None of this is to deny that racism exists, and isn’t a contributory factor in some instances, but the evidence suggests that the primary cause of the issues seems to be something other than structural racism in society.

Could be the fact that many of the children of colour are in families who have not lived in the UK long? Relative newcomers to the UK, unless they are here in a professional work capacity, or as students, may not have the qualifications or language skills to earn much. That’s been the same over history, it can take a generation or two to become established.

💯%

You don’t think structural racism exists in the UK?

Some headline statistics for you :

47% of children of colour are living in poverty, compared to 24% of white children. Police are 6.5 more likely to strip search Black children, and 4.7 times more likely to strip search Black adults, than their white counterparts.

pretty shocking when the objective facts are still like this that you would seek to deny the existence of structural racism.

And then your next post is: "oh do fuck off" No Nobel Peace Prize for you. Put your peace bringer card back in your purse. 🙄