To think most men wouldn’t survive a year living the life of an average woman?

Again, that’s twisting the nuance.

To be clear- I would find it extremely distressing as a mother to have been separated from my baby before I was ready. If I lived in day America, who have appalling maternity rights and many mothers are completely priced out of having barely a few weeks off, then yes, I would feel that society was an emotionally abusive place to be a mother. Causing stress to a mother is not great for their children. Mothers obviously feel different if it is their choice over the timing to start to reincorporate paid work again.

When mine were younger I had an experienced nanny telling me at the park that she would give anything to have my life. She was desperate to start her own family but was not yet able to financially. She was very upset and I don’t think it’s right that women who really want to be mothers are effectively being priced out of that option. To me that’s wrong as a society, and is harming women’s rights.

Are you saying you said things you didn't mean in anger and aren't actually a raging misogynist @ThankYouNigel ?

I’m not sure accusing working mothers of neglect and child abuse is the best way to put your point across tbh.

I’m trying to get across that we do not need to put ourselves under such insane pressure to do everything all the time.

Check out a thread going on right now: ‘Juggling everything so damn hard!!!’ The OP and respondents seem really honest. They shouldn’t have to be doing all this, and are saying they are struggling.

I asked you if you would also call men selfish or lazy for going to the gym because you clearly have double standards for men and women, you never answered so it was clear you wouldn't.

Yep, looking after kids is easy. So why do you want a medal?

Likewise if you’re rude to a woman who chooses to work after having children, and you’ve been spectacularly rude to many of us.

Nope, you twisted my point. And lied about me saying men can go to the barbers and gym- you added that in! 😂

If you are rude to a housewife and look down your nose on them for being financially dependent on their DH, then they absolutely are going to retaliate and question your own financial independence and your level of dependence on your parents/in laws/paid professionals.

Acting in an independent manner does not just refer to finances. I made the point that I managed to look after 2 under-3s entirely by myself and found it easy. I even took both to my own emergency dental appointment- it’s really not that difficult. I’ve managed multiple serious hospital appointments for 1 DC around their sibling. I wasn’t dependent on anyone for practical support. Some people remain highly dependent on their parents for years, I moved out and was running my own home young.

I don't know what you're on about. I have loved every minute of motherhood. As a scientist I believe actual proven research on how to keep babies safe should be given to parents and too many ignore it resulting in unhealthy children or babies who suffocate in cots and all manner of terrible things. I am regularly praised for what a good job I've done with my daughter and how I make it look natural and easy. You're just being dramatic.

You completely ignored every other point I made as usual. And no one is paying a nursery to get their hair cut, grandparents watch a baby for a couple of hours while mums get their hair cut but you said "They are pathetic needing a break from their own kids and asking grandparents to look after their kids so they can do things like go to the gym or a beauty appointment was disgusting" you called them lazy, selfish and entitled too for daring to take time to look after themselves. More hypocrisy from you doesn't surprise me.

Like I said, I'm really concerned for your daughter's and future daughters in law.

But why does it matter?
Many of your posts have suggested that the children of working mothers live in dirty houses because we can’t possibly have a house as clean as yours. You’ve suggested our children are late for school, that we don’t cut their nails, write Christmas cards, have pictures of our children on the walls…all because we can’t possibly be as organised as you.

Now that many of us have told you you’re incorrect you’re now going on about us not being transparent about outsourcing or sharing the load.
Who fucking cares? At the end of the day our children are just as happy and as cared for as yours, we’re just as good a mother as you and we’ve all made choices that work for us. And that’s all that matters.

Many of them outsource childcare and housework so they can play tennis and shop.

Let’s not pretend it’s all to spend time with their families.

Working people are doing that work during SAHP “leisure” time, like the 6hrs a day most children go to school.

Nope, not for outsourcing per se, but for not being transparent about the degree of that sharing/outsourcing whilst masquerading as someone who does exactly the same as a hands-on housewife. I even told some posters I respected their honesty about it!

I had been forced out to work I actually would have outsourced any cleaning I could afford. I would have been so devastated at losing precious time with my children that I would have not wanted to waste a moment I still had with them on cleaning!

So I personally can fit doing my own cleaning and gardening around my children, and take pride in doing it myself.

Some SAHMs are properly rich. The size of their home and land goes way beyond what they could reasonably clean/garden themselves, some can easily afford a whole team of people. Some prefer that to free themselves up to spend more time with their DCs and husband.

I would always prioritise time with my children over housework, that needs to be done but has to fit around the children’s needs and routines, not the other way round.

Them’s the rules

Especially not an attractive woman, they think it’s great and they will play with their breast all day not including the constant street harrassment or jealously from other women.

Bring up your own kids! Unless you can afford for someone else to take them while you lunch with the ladies.

Hang on… weren’t you slating working mums for outsourcing things earlier in the thread?

Most genuinely rich stay at home wives outsource all their childcare. Guess that doesn’t fit your little tradwife theory about how working mums are so bad.
Also when the SAHM is a narc, being anywhere but in her care is best for the child. And a worrying number are, especially covert narcs, who absolutely thrive on the martyrdom that being a SAHM allows. Being looked after by your parents is only objectively good if your parents are good people.

Ok let’s talk more about why UK mothers struggle with mental health.

UK mothers understandably struggle now with having a baby, because they often have absolutely no idea what that responsibility entails, or any real encouragement or support for it. They are bombarded through school, university and early adult life with putting education and career first. They often experience nothing but dismissive attitudes towards both marriage and motherhood. Young mothers and fathers are sneered at, large families are sneered at. They may have never even held a baby, given how fragmented extended family life often is now.

UK mothers are currently bombarded with constant ‘expert’ advice about the ‘right’ thing to do regarding every aspect of their baby’s development. They can’t escape it, it is everywhere on the internet, along with ‘sharenting’, in a manner which is completely unprecedented. They are simultaneously made to feel anxious and judged whilst being bombarded with constant questions about when they are going back to work (the correct question is if, not when. Only one truly supportive lady asked me ‘have you decided if you are going back to work or staying at home longer?’). Advertisers excessively target them to prey on their insecurities and convince them to spend money to ‘be a good Mum’ (no, I do not need to buy a bath water thermometer, I am perfectly capable of checking my baby’s bath water myself! No, I do not need to hire a sleep ‘expert’, I trust my baby and myself to work out what works for us, as mothers have managed to do since the dawn of time!) They certainly shouldn’t need to pay a nursery to have time to get a hair cut! Where is everyone?! Why isn’t anyone offering to help as a genuine favour, not for money?!

UK mothers need to absolutely start pushing back against all of this nonsense that is destroying their experience of motherhood, their enjoyment of it and their ability to properly relax and bond with their own babies. They don’t need to buy loads of stuff and pay loads of ‘experts’. They need time and space. Time that is unhurried, time to adjust and find a new rhythm and routine that works for their baby and household. Time to try things out, take risks, adapt, try again, try something else. To know there is nothing wrong with them or their baby and everything will settle down and fall into place, if society can back off and give them half a chance.

I think my DH would cope after a while. I don't think I could survive as him though.

@ThankYouNigel I'm actually really concerned about your daughter's and future daughter in laws.

Raising girls with the misogynistic ideas that you have displayed in this thread;

-They cannot be breadwinners and it is unsustainable
-She should bend over backwards to do everything for her husband and children and expect no help in return because all he is responsible for is work and paying for things
-She should be grateful for the fact her husband doesn't lift a finger because he is 'trying his best'🙄
-It is immoral for her to take care of her to take time to look after her own appearance and health after becoming a mother whilst it is fine for a man to go the gym or the barbers
-It is neglectful of her to have her own ambitions after having children
-It is impossible for a woman to be self sufficient
-She will never be equal to a man
-She is pathetic if she needs help with her older children during the postpartum period where it is normal to struggle with physical and mental health

Is extremely damaging to a girls sense of self worth and makes her vulnerable to abusive relationships. Likewise raising sons with these views makes it very unlikely they will respect women as equals and makes them more likely to engage in the misogynistic behaviour that plagues our society today.

Your daughter's and daughters in law deserve better than that, like my daughter does. A good mother fights for the world her daughter will be living in to be better than the one we grew up in, and this isn't it.

I think it's fine if you want to commit your life to housework or whatever. I don't get the attraction personally, but as long as you're not expecting taxpayers to subsidise your lifestyle choices, then I don't really care what you do. I am not bothered how strangers spend their time.

Some stay at home wives actually want these things outsourced too- that’s absolutely up to them.

A full time cleaner goes home, it’s just a job. What a lonely, soulless existence if the only human contact or support you can get has to be paid for. You can’t buy love or relationships, not genuine ones.

Well there are certainly plenty these days who’d jump at the chance to leave their kids with a robot, anyone rather than actually look after them themselves. I don’t doubt they will sell well to a certain clientele.

Well, not really.

Housewives could be replaced by humans, now. Nevermind robots.

I know a twice divorced, very wealthy man, who has 2 kids.

He has a nanny, cleaners, pool cleaners, gardeners, someone who does his shopping, he can get people to cook his food.

If you reduce yourself to just domestic duties, they can all be done by someone who’s being paid to do it, and therefore probably also paying tax and contributing economically.

I’d bet that’s cheaper than paying for your wife’s whole life so she does it, as well.

Instead of having a “full time housewife,” just get a full time cleaner.