To think we can’t revive the country on the backs of the poor, the struggling, or the middle class?

the tax the rich mob can’t cope with removing WFA from society’s wealthiest people, for crying out loud. I

I agree, this is ridiculous

@Aspanielstolemysanity but I'm assuming you worked hard over many years to get where you are now? And I'm assuming that fewer people can do your job then the one you did at 16? As with most things, its rarity that determines value... A lot, not all, nmw jobs could be done with a day or two of training by most people. A skilled engineer or medic or CEO not so much. Unless we have a total radical overhaul of how we reward work...eg carers who are absolutely vital being paid what they are worth rather than the pittance they are currently, that will continue to be the model. But how you determine what job is worth more? Are binmen more important than carers? How about road repairs?

My little idea is this: identify the areas that have moribund empty housing and sites for new builds. Identify the increase infrastructure needed to support them, schools, go surgeries etc etc, identify the costs involved in building and staffing all of it. Set up a nationally owned company to build it, directly employ the site managers, trades etc with generous enough terms that include a compulsory level of apprentice schemes for all the trades, the business admin needed to run it, the health and social care quals for the nurseries and in home help needed, partnerships with existing schemes to offer incentives for people to train specifically as GPs and teachers with a caveat that they must work in the NHS and state schools for X years or have to pay it back. A minimum of ten if not twenty years cross party agreement that the scheme will achieve it's goals and not be ditched or changed with a change of government. Oversight and legislation to prevent the HS2 fiasco. Ultimately, the houses to be built will be 50/50 council owned and remain that way. The privately owned ones are sold initially at no more than 3/4 times the average wage in that area. Affordablility criteria based on evidence that people have paid a similar level of rent reliably for X years, not if they have a huge deposit. The overall scheme is not for profit OR all citizens can invest in bonds / shares that support it.

I'm sure lots of people will tell me that's unworkable and I'm not an economist but I feel like something huge and radical and innovative needs to happen. Tinkering with tax won't do it.

I am pretty fed up with paying as much tax as I do, and seeing so much go to unsustainable benefits and adult social care. I think our benefits system is far too generous - the tax the rich mob can’t cope with removing WFA from society’s wealthiest people, for crying out loud. If the Govt is going to spend money it needs to spend it on stuff that makes us more productive - half decent public transport and power, for example.

Give it a few decades and the country will only be filled with pensioners believing they’ve contributed enough to claim 40 years of pension and other age related benefits,

Err, we have this now! 😆

As I’ve grown older I’ve realised the majority of people in this country have a beggar mindset.

Give it a few decades and the country will only be filled with pensioners believing they’ve contributed enough to claim 40 years of pension and other age related benefits, underclass cash in hand Tommy Robinson supporters, and asylum seekers.

No young person with anything about them will stay. It’s depressing.

It's not just millionaires and billionaires who are leaving.

Young talent- our future net contributors- is leaving. Because being a net contributor is now a dirty word.

Totally agree with this

Oh, please let them leave! These are the guys who take the money and return nothing. The guys who drove Thames Water inefficient and broke, yet took bonuses. The guys who charged extras for car loans... Let them leave, but.... the assets do stay in UK. We should, indeed, be changing some laws and make sure you cannot hold a job in UK without living here, neither have property over X value, neither take the money is owned to the State anywhere out of UK. The guys can go to the moon, if they want to. No more Rishi Sunak "living" in US, but holding a top UK government position. Enough is enough.

As you well say, we are asked to pull together and reduce our expectations (tighten our belts, yet agsin!) over and over.
If Labour interferes in the ruling against car lendrs, that would be it! For once these guys are held accountable for some of the money they pinch from us, we need to protect them and feel sorry for them or something?! It is the financial world which creates this type of problem, by being dishonest. But, we pay for it. They should actually be severely fined by the State, for takingvmoney from the every day worker just trying to buy a car to go to work and take the kids to school.

Yeah, I don't know why people always threaten this

And I always find it fascinating that the self proclaimed "rich" of Mumsnet have so few family or friendship ties that they would happily get up and leave the country without a backwards glance. I have heaps of people I love here, and feel part of the community, it would be a huge wrench to leave

Amazing as it may seem, UK tax is unusually progressive compared to OECD peers, with the burden falling in middle earners being unusually low.

And the reason they can't increase it is housing costs. It's also why a PAYE worker on 100k feels hard done by because so much gets spent on housing costs & the services they pay for are eroding so other countries do look more attractive.

But more than that, we need to move the main political conversation off who bears the burden of tax and cuts, onto how to get the economy growing after 20 years of stagnation. The tax debate is the sticking-plaster. The hard work is to fix the fundamentals to grow the pie.

This, we need something radical to fix it but I am not sure how you get people to buy into it. Currently we are just on a doom loop.

Gary for PM!!

It's such a lie that wealthier people work harder .
The more senior I have become the less hard I have had to work, and the more autonomy and flexibility I have had.

My hardest job was my minimum wage job I did straight after school

If less % of your household income is used for rent - you subsequently have more to spend, which does help the economy

Why don't more people grasp this point, so much money is spent on housing when it could be put into other parts of the economy.

Y building more council and social housing, this reduces private rental cost, thus stagnating housing prices. If less % of your household income is used for rent - you subsequently have more to spend, which does help the economy

private landlords are apparently selling up anyway and cooperations are buying of plan to rent

Immigrants to the UK aren't allowed to work? That's the first I have heard of this.🙄

I meant to quote the ppl who claimed immigrants don't work, but quote didn't work. However if posters don't even know the difference between highly skilled immigrants and asylum seekers, and think anyone who looks foreign can't possibly be a net contributor, Reform is definitely in.

Yes.. that’s a perfect way to growth..
let’s just bankrupt the country now.. reset those house prices .. start again.. maybe they should give homes away to the most ‘worthy’
I think a lot of people have forgotten we don’t live in a Commune and nor should our life experience be dictated by the lowest common denominator of GDP….

What actually needs to happen but never will, is proper property taxes. Either a land value tax or a tax of a percentage of the property value paid yearly. Even changes to inheritance tax would help so that the rate decreases to say 10% but it applies to every estate would disincentivise people from trying to avoid it and raise more money.

None of this will happen because too few people will vote for it. The only tax changes which would be voted in are increases in income tax or wealth tax for other people which won’t raise much money.

They way to give the vast majority of people more money in their pocket is to generate growth.

Controversially, we also need a dramatic reset in the housing market. I wish property was bought as a home, not an investment. It would devalue property (so totally unworkable) but housing costs would drop significantly for everyone.

They’d start to leave and take their taxes with them. I never ever thought I’d contemplate leaving the U.K. but even I am (slightly) considering it.

Money gives you freedom, and that includes the freedom to move elsewhere.

If you include council tax as well then the working poor are taxed more than the rich.
On percentage of income, the poorest working people pay 48% of their income and the richest 10% pay 39% of theirs. How is that fair?

https://taxjustice.net/press/millionaire-exodus-did-not-occur-study-reveals/

www.imidaily.com/europe/uk-lost-10800-millionaires-in-2024-as-non-dom-changes-spark-record-exodus/

todayswillsandprobate.co.uk/britain-set-to-lose-record-numbers-of-millionaires/

Yet HMRC is criticised for not knowing how much the 156 billionaires are paying in tax

do you know something they don’t?

Recently went to NY, Statue of Liberty;

“Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore”

They built a very rich country on tired huddled masses, yet unfortunately, here- there seems to be a policy that immigrants aren’t allowed to work?

Please forgive my ignorance if this is incorrect.

Our GDP is low, so our economy is not growing…
millionaires and billionaires, entrepreneurs etc are leaving in their droves..

maybe we are all sick of paying for those with a bad back or those who are lazy.. those who won’t earn a penny for their whole lives..

@ForBreezySloth

No one is denying that high earners contribute a lot in raw numbers but fairness in taxation isn’t just about absolute figures, it’s also about how wealth is structured and who bears the brunt when times are tough.

Amazing as it may seem, UK tax is unusually progressive compared to OECD peers, with the burden falling in middle earners being unusually low.

I’d suggest the answer has to be to prioritise growth, and encouraging more high-income people to come here. Which means being careful about top tax rates and the political messaging.

But more than that, we need to move the main political conversation off who bears the burden of tax and cuts, onto how to get the economy growing after 20 years of stagnation. The tax debate is the sticking-plaster. The hard work is to fix the fundamentals to grow the pie.