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To think The West is morally bankrupt

382 replies

Elrae · 27/07/2025 00:19

America democratically elects an adjudicate rapist who sympathises with racists, hates women and will do anything to hang onto power. The UK and it's lickspitrlw leader fawn over Trump and says that Israel has rhe right to cut off food and water to Gaza. Then wairs a year watching children die before saying it is intolerable. Except he is tolerating it.We all are.
The West is pumping out carbon at a vast rate and will no doubt reject the flood of refugees that this will cause.
The West takes more than it's fair share of the world's wealth. Much of the West is based on colonial exploration and murder of the global south.
I used to think we were the good guys.
We are not. We are one of the worst things ever to happen to the planet and it's inhabitants.

OP posts:
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AliasGrace47 · 25/08/2025 05:13

Menopausalsourpuss · 27/07/2025 19:20

Yes if only we had a leader who put us first and negotiated good deals (for us rather than Mauritians etc). Like most people I feel that the Government are my enemy, it must be great to be American (or Japanese or one of the other countries where the leaders work on behalf of the people that pay them).

Why can't we prioritise our interests whilst still trying to help other countries where possible?

Obvs not possible atm, we must focus on ourselves w the state things are in now. And helping does not mean mass immigration which in fact hinders poor countries in the long run due to brain drain.

AliasGrace47 · 25/08/2025 05:11

CapeGooseberry · 27/07/2025 17:33

Trump’s message was unashamedly patriotic - make America great again. We are not America so Trump is not on ‘our side’. That he thinks he got a good trade deal from Starmer should concern us just as much as the Democrats colonialism through the imposition of their political creeds.

I think Trump confuses a lot of European leaders who have got too used to ignoring their own populations - they fail to understand he doesn’t care about countries or people beyond America’s borders other than in terms of American interests.

Patriotic doesn't have to mean only caring about yourself. In the case of Trump it does ofc. One can be patriotic, prioritise one's own country & still care about the fate of other countries.

AliasGrace47 · 25/08/2025 05:09

Zellycat · 27/07/2025 17:19

Another point of view is UK is currently a chump nation, too worried about appearing nationalistic to protect its own people and the best interests of citizens … so turns a blind eye to people/men entering illegally & dishonestly and getting handouts.

Whilst PM & Labour turn their backs on citizens and pursue some idealistic open borders hellhole where workers pay high taxes support the Labour open doors rainbow dreamers who lie, steal, cheat and accept generous handouts from the British idiots who want the non-caring “world” to think they’re “kind”.

His many here on MN, donate to or help local British families in need? I suggest more MN care about dogs, donkeys in Romania than people in own community who need support.

Plenty of people care about both, it's not a zero sum game. And plenty also agree about the immigration issue.

AliasGrace47 · 25/08/2025 05:07

Menopausalsourpuss · 27/07/2025 18:35

Yes thanks you've made my point, people like me that were working didn't have time for international campaigns. Doesnt sound like you had a job. Just like now the "Palestine" protesters are retired, wealthy off students or on benefits. Old white people over represented.

Don't you think it's a good thing some UK people protested apartheid? You seem very negative.

AliasGrace47 · 25/08/2025 05:04

Dappy777 · 27/07/2025 14:58

Pretty much everything you believe in, from reason and science to human rights and individual freedom, was born in Europe. The scientific revolution and the European Enlightenment made the modern world. You talk about colonialism. EVERYONE practiced colonialism. The Babylonians, Mongols, Zulus, Aztecs, Incas, Chinese, Mughals, Arabs, etc, etc all colonised and enslaved their neighbours. Modern China is an empire ffs (just ask the Tibetans or Uyghur Muslims). Young people are taught that Native Americans were peace-loving hippies. In reality, they were horrifically cruel to those they defeated in wars or raids. Rape, mutilation, torture and mass killing were the norm. The human race only began to emerge from savagery in the 18th-century. Until then, slavery and public torture were universal. There never was a golden age. There never was a peace-loving tribe ‘living in harmony with nature’. It’s a myth believed in by masochistic western liberals. I’m not ashamed to be British at all. Any nation that can produce Francis Bacon, John Locke, Adam Smith, David Hume, Isaac Newton, William Wilberforce, Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens, George Eliot, Bertrand Russell and George Orwell is alright by me. Find me a nation or culture that can produce a list like that! Such people helped create all that’s good in the modern world.

Had Britain never practised colonisation, the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand would not exist in their present form. Instead, you’d be at the mercy of China, Russia and Iran. Would you prefer to live in such a world? Imagine if Europe and North America vanished in a puff of smoke and you now lived in a small village somewhere in the middle of the Eurasian land mass. Would you feel safer and happier than you do now? Why not put down the Guardian, switch off the BBC and try actually thinking for yourself.

Native Americans were not a monolith. They ran the gamut of the terrifying Comanches & warmongering Sioux to the peaceful Salinans, Hopi and Nez Perce, with varying levels of violence in between.

AnnaBalfour · 31/07/2025 23:57

GoodPudding · 27/07/2025 08:12

Yes, I agree what’s happening in Gaza is appalling and sickening, but why are the West responsible more than say, the neighbouring Arab nations, China, India or Russia?

The idea that the West is the only possible beacon of righteousness in the world, to the extent that we don’t even consider other countries’ responsibilities, is actually a pretty imperialist mindset, albeit a warped one.

I think that’s in part at least due to wealthy western nations being expected to be fair, Just, democratic and held to a higher standard

NarnianQueen · 29/07/2025 08:28

So you mean “the West” or do you mean “the world”? I’d say China has its fair share of moral and environmental issues…

PurpleAxe · 28/07/2025 22:53

So, you going to do anything OP, or just virtue signal on the internet and maybe wave a flag a bit with a bunch of other flag shaggers?

Gonna give up any of your time/safety/stuff, or just expect other people to do it for you while you shout about how they are doing it wrong?

Zellycat · 28/07/2025 13:53

Elrae · 28/07/2025 09:41

Hamas are responsible for the October 7th attacks and no doubt other atrocities.
Trump could have stopped the mass murder of children in Gaza with one statement or phone call. Instead, he supports the sick Netanyahu and lets the murder continue. This is a moral crime

Joe Biden was president on 7 Oct 2023 when Hamas Terrorists invaded Israel and attacked civilians. So, Trump didn’t have access to that magic war stopping telephone you think the US president has … unless you think Trump, who was not president, had a magic phone at Mar-a-lago, and had authority to use the magic war-stop phone as a civilian.

Really, you seem confused. Maybe step away from MN until you start feeling less foggy about real world … and The West.

bluewanda · 28/07/2025 13:44

Does the West not disproportionately cause carbon emissions?
Do carbon emissions not cause climate change?

Erm, no actually. China is by far the biggest emitter of carbon - and 8 of the countries in the top 10 are not in the West.

www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/

Jujujudo · 28/07/2025 13:34

justasking111 · 28/07/2025 13:29

Well our school has done ed on brushing teeth. We were given toothbrushes. As for paying someone to come in. 🙄

Many grandparents buying paper, pen, pritt sticks etc because school can't afford them. Parents give books, and all the above already.

It’s not good. It doesn’t make sense either, because it’s the same in the US and good think that children should be the priority.

justasking111 · 28/07/2025 13:29

Jujujudo · 28/07/2025 13:05

I think there should be school dentists that check children’s teeth during school time. That would help with parents who can’t or don’t have the means to check children’s teeth regularly.

Well our school has done ed on brushing teeth. We were given toothbrushes. As for paying someone to come in. 🙄

Many grandparents buying paper, pen, pritt sticks etc because school can't afford them. Parents give books, and all the above already.

rainingsnoring · 28/07/2025 13:27

WilfredsPies · 28/07/2025 13:25

Looking at it in the round, rather than individually, it absolutely is true.

Which part of that post do you disagree with?

'Nothing comes close to the UK as far as standard of living, access to health services, education, social welfare is concerned'

This.
The standard of living and all public services have massive deteriorated over many years. I thought most people had noticed by now; it's constantly in the media.

WilfredsPies · 28/07/2025 13:25

rainingsnoring · 28/07/2025 13:09

I'm sorry but this just isn't true. You haven't stated which other countries you have lived in, whether you actually live in the UK now and are British. What you say simply isn't the case nowadays.

Looking at it in the round, rather than individually, it absolutely is true.

Which part of that post do you disagree with?

rainingsnoring · 28/07/2025 13:09

Jujujudo · 28/07/2025 09:13

I have lived and travelled in many countries on various continents. Nothing comes close to the UK as far as standard of living, access to health services, education, social welfare is concerned. I’ve lived in countries where women are forced to stay with abusive men because there is no support if they leave and the law gives the children to the abuser. I’ve lived in countries where school isn’t free and finishes at 12.45 and little children have to stay alone at home. I’ve lived in countries where people remove their own teeth because they can’t access or afford dental care, where they don’t have access to fresh food or water, where they can be arrested and sent to camps for “correction” for the smallest thing.
There are regimes that don’t allow women to drive. Regimes that send 6 year olds to war. Countries where entire families live on a cabin on stilts over a river, where men marry 6 women, where abortion is illegal, where there are no elections, where the colour of your skin means the difference between mastery and slavery.
The UK is a beacon of opportunity, potential and safety for so many - why do you think people are willing to die on a boat in order to live here?
I always thought, after many years of living in the developing world, that British people seem to complain about things that seem so insignificant, because they are nothing to do with survival. Almost as though you have no real basic problems.
If you were born British you are among the most privileged people in the world.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true. You haven't stated which other countries you have lived in, whether you actually live in the UK now and are British. What you say simply isn't the case nowadays.

Jujujudo · 28/07/2025 13:05

CatHairEveryWhereNow · 28/07/2025 11:43

I think they should be priortiing kids TBH or those like Dad left in severe pain though due to his poor health he fell between the many and increasing NHS gaps for quite a few things.

Here - my part of UK it was a known but unacknowledged by authorities issue good 5-6 years before covid lack of dental access but no NHS dentists taking on anyone.

Since covid more of our relatives in other parts of UK have found they go private or they have no dentists - and TBF many dentist will take on kids on as NHS as a loss to them because they do care but they do have to have paying customers to keep their door open as well.

I think there should be school dentists that check children’s teeth during school time. That would help with parents who can’t or don’t have the means to check children’s teeth regularly.

Elrae · 28/07/2025 12:23

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CatHairEveryWhereNow · 28/07/2025 11:46

AWitchCalledMeg · 28/07/2025 10:34

I used to think this. I argued with family and friends who suggested otherwise. I can see now it was "groupthink" that I picked up at university, rather than my own thoughts.
Last year I researched and bought a veritable stack of books and my thoughts now are very different. The west IS the cradle of civilisation, art, honour, beauty, innovation. Its been a huge mindset shift for me and I'm deeply thankful for the rich culture and history we have here, and how shameful, ignorant and arrogant my attitude was before.. I'm genuinely embarrassed when I think of it. Those spouting off stale sound bites like "colonisers" and "racist" honestly have no idea. Imagine if we dismissed the entirety of Africa as "genital mutilators" or the entire of Islam as "rapists". It's absolutely thick and offensive and I have no truck with it, bore off and read a book why don't you.

I used to think we were the good guys.
We are not. We are one of the worst things ever to happen to the planet and it's inhabitants.

Such a ungrateful sentiment to your ancestors and the sacrifice of your deceased countrymen on whose shoulders we stand. The historic contribution of Britain to the world is nothing short of extraordinary and even now we continue to be tolerant and welcoming despite it having come at great cost to the quality of life that our ancestors sweated over, for our inheritance and their posterity. I do believe you will look back in these words someday and feel embarrassed.

Thankfully these viewpoints are becoming less fashionable and prevalent, and commonsense and a regard for historical fact rather than social media hearsay, is starting to return I've noticed

Edited

I watch US citizen review this and the are suprised becuase if they've heard of the name thought were US people (even ones before their country existed) and assumed all were US inventions.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcZQS4LBugk

CatHairEveryWhereNow · 28/07/2025 11:43

Jujujudo · 28/07/2025 11:21

That’s appalling. Dental care should be accessible to everyone, especially children.

I think they should be priortiing kids TBH or those like Dad left in severe pain though due to his poor health he fell between the many and increasing NHS gaps for quite a few things.

Here - my part of UK it was a known but unacknowledged by authorities issue good 5-6 years before covid lack of dental access but no NHS dentists taking on anyone.

Since covid more of our relatives in other parts of UK have found they go private or they have no dentists - and TBF many dentist will take on kids on as NHS as a loss to them because they do care but they do have to have paying customers to keep their door open as well.

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 11:40

AWitchCalledMeg · 28/07/2025 10:34

I used to think this. I argued with family and friends who suggested otherwise. I can see now it was "groupthink" that I picked up at university, rather than my own thoughts.
Last year I researched and bought a veritable stack of books and my thoughts now are very different. The west IS the cradle of civilisation, art, honour, beauty, innovation. Its been a huge mindset shift for me and I'm deeply thankful for the rich culture and history we have here, and how shameful, ignorant and arrogant my attitude was before.. I'm genuinely embarrassed when I think of it. Those spouting off stale sound bites like "colonisers" and "racist" honestly have no idea. Imagine if we dismissed the entirety of Africa as "genital mutilators" or the entire of Islam as "rapists". It's absolutely thick and offensive and I have no truck with it, bore off and read a book why don't you.

I used to think we were the good guys.
We are not. We are one of the worst things ever to happen to the planet and it's inhabitants.

Such a ungrateful sentiment to your ancestors and the sacrifice of your deceased countrymen on whose shoulders we stand. The historic contribution of Britain to the world is nothing short of extraordinary and even now we continue to be tolerant and welcoming despite it having come at great cost to the quality of life that our ancestors sweated over, for our inheritance and their posterity. I do believe you will look back in these words someday and feel embarrassed.

Thankfully these viewpoints are becoming less fashionable and prevalent, and commonsense and a regard for historical fact rather than social media hearsay, is starting to return I've noticed

Edited

Yes I think many go through this thinking but then realise the west offers freedoms and protections, especially for women. If you then have a dd there are countries I’d feel relieved for her to grow up in(very much so) and others the opposite. That applies to all dc actually, whether dd or ds.

Oasisagiger · 28/07/2025 11:37

The west is by no means perfect, but as has been stated the west has democracy at its heart - (though I do wonder sometimes because although we get to vote, nothing ever seems to come to fruition with successive governments and I think that will change at the next election as folk are so fed up)

Generally we are a civilised society and people have a voice. In many other countries sadly that’s not the case, especially for women. Women have no rights in many countries and that’s what im
referring to when I say civilised.

So I would argue that whilst the west isn’t perfect it’s far better than plenty of other countries that still hold medieval views that are morally abhorrent

Oasisagiger · 28/07/2025 11:27

AWitchCalledMeg · 28/07/2025 10:34

I used to think this. I argued with family and friends who suggested otherwise. I can see now it was "groupthink" that I picked up at university, rather than my own thoughts.
Last year I researched and bought a veritable stack of books and my thoughts now are very different. The west IS the cradle of civilisation, art, honour, beauty, innovation. Its been a huge mindset shift for me and I'm deeply thankful for the rich culture and history we have here, and how shameful, ignorant and arrogant my attitude was before.. I'm genuinely embarrassed when I think of it. Those spouting off stale sound bites like "colonisers" and "racist" honestly have no idea. Imagine if we dismissed the entirety of Africa as "genital mutilators" or the entire of Islam as "rapists". It's absolutely thick and offensive and I have no truck with it, bore off and read a book why don't you.

I used to think we were the good guys.
We are not. We are one of the worst things ever to happen to the planet and it's inhabitants.

Such a ungrateful sentiment to your ancestors and the sacrifice of your deceased countrymen on whose shoulders we stand. The historic contribution of Britain to the world is nothing short of extraordinary and even now we continue to be tolerant and welcoming despite it having come at great cost to the quality of life that our ancestors sweated over, for our inheritance and their posterity. I do believe you will look back in these words someday and feel embarrassed.

Thankfully these viewpoints are becoming less fashionable and prevalent, and commonsense and a regard for historical fact rather than social media hearsay, is starting to return I've noticed

Edited

Superb post.

Jujujudo · 28/07/2025 11:21

CatHairEveryWhereNow · 28/07/2025 10:15

Partly - it's slowly going private in a very patchy way.

Some of my family still have NHS dentists rest it's usually a monthly insurance scheme with extra payments on top as necessary with some discounts or very expensive outlays as neccessary.

Sometime it's because there is a shortage of dentists in area or they've been let go by NHS dentist but care is complex due to underlying condtions/medication and no private dentist wants to take them on - then they get left to dental hositals who mainly do extractions - that happened to my Dad.

Sometime it can be cheaper to go abroad depending on what needs doing - though that's the same for some operations with long wait lists as well.

All of my family do have dental access - just have to increasingly pay for it - but many kids in our area just don't.

That’s appalling. Dental care should be accessible to everyone, especially children.

AWitchCalledMeg · 28/07/2025 10:34

I used to think this. I argued with family and friends who suggested otherwise. I can see now it was "groupthink" that I picked up at university, rather than my own thoughts.
Last year I researched and bought a veritable stack of books and my thoughts now are very different. The west IS the cradle of civilisation, art, honour, beauty, innovation. Its been a huge mindset shift for me and I'm deeply thankful for the rich culture and history we have here, and how shameful, ignorant and arrogant my attitude was before.. I'm genuinely embarrassed when I think of it. Those spouting off stale sound bites like "colonisers" and "racist" honestly have no idea. Imagine if we dismissed the entirety of Africa as "genital mutilators" or the entire of Islam as "rapists". It's absolutely thick and offensive and I have no truck with it, bore off and read a book why don't you.

I used to think we were the good guys.
We are not. We are one of the worst things ever to happen to the planet and it's inhabitants.

Such a ungrateful sentiment to your ancestors and the sacrifice of your deceased countrymen on whose shoulders we stand. The historic contribution of Britain to the world is nothing short of extraordinary and even now we continue to be tolerant and welcoming despite it having come at great cost to the quality of life that our ancestors sweated over, for our inheritance and their posterity. I do believe you will look back in these words someday and feel embarrassed.

Thankfully these viewpoints are becoming less fashionable and prevalent, and commonsense and a regard for historical fact rather than social media hearsay, is starting to return I've noticed

CapeGooseberry · 28/07/2025 10:32

LeftOpen · 28/07/2025 08:34

As a second generation Asian Muslim (born and brought up here), I love the UK, esp London and don’t want to live anywhere else. I am not very observant, have an English husband and am fully integrated here. No desire to move anywhere else, including my parents’ home country.

But it’s ok to criticise where you live surely? Everywhere has pros and cons. People get soooo defensive when posters criticise the UK. Automatic rude replies, telling people to leave the country, saying how much worse life would be in other countries (true in many cases). But it’s not perfect here. And we have had our part of play in historical conflicts. Why is it not ok to talk about this stuff?

Should we just be lauding our leader and extolling the benefits of UK life without any negatives? That’s all a bit dictator-y in my eyes.

The difference is as a second generation immigrant you feel free to criticise the UK whilst also absolving yourself of historical wrongs because you ‘are a second generation immigrant’. But as a second generation immigrant you also are not part of the history of historical suffering either. The very fact you refer to yourself as a second generation immigrant shows you do not identify with country’s history. Your historical association only starts in the last half century.