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Is my best friend racist?

614 replies

Newnamefortouchysubject · 25/07/2025 16:46

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
PistachioTiramisuLimoncello · 28/07/2025 15:52

She’s racist. She doesn’t think she
is because she’s trying to justify it with soundbites from Reform types.

Just because she doesn’t have friends of different cultures, doesn’t mean other people don’t. This means she is also ignorant.

There are frankly many white English people I’d rather not hang out with or live near and many people from the vast aray of cultures and backgrounds who are my friends and neighbors whom I am delighted to live side by side.

Our children are educated alongside one another in an incredibly mixed, tolerant and happy state school. Over my dead body would they grow up to be such bigots!

YFIAB op.

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 15:48

"The figures would mean that the conviction rate for foreign nationals is 5.75 per 100,000 of the population and 1.77 per 100,000 for the British population - a conviction rate which is 224% higher. In other words, foreign nationals are convicted for sexual assault on a female at a rate 2.24 times higher than the British population."

”Foreign nationals” will include many people who share significant common ground with our culture and values, be they white, black, brown or whatever…. That number will be massively skewed by those that don’t, such as those from misogynistic Islamic cultures.

I can’t quite believe how the Left are sacrificing women on the altar of identity politics, first gender, now culture (dressed up as race).

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 15:43

But 19 is too small number to judge an entire community.

Time for the chart again.

Is my best friend racist?
SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 15:42

The article also says foreigners have a much higher conviction rate than British people charged with sexual assails, this is likely due to lack of access to a good defence lawyer.

Everyone in the UK is provided with a defence lawyer if they're unable to pay for one.
We both know that the reason is people who are from cultures with a very different view of women, and nothing to do with the ability of their legal representation.

nomas · 28/07/2025 15:41

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 15:26

The figures @nomas quoted originally indicate a similar imbalance when you realise that she had subsequently replaced then original 2,934 comparator with 200,000.

That's a good spot! And of course my figures from other European countries are being roundly ignored as well as I previously pointed out the poster's rudeness - which somehow negates relevant statistics, or something (especially when they don't suit).

I've just looked at the provided link now and it's actually horrifying - quite why anyone would link that when wanting to prove that certain nationalities don't assult more is beyond me.

"The figures would mean that the conviction rate for foreign nationals is 5.75 per 100,000 of the population and 1.77 per 100,000 for the British population - a conviction rate which is 224% higher. In other words, foreign nationals are convicted for sexual assault on a female at a rate 2.24 times higher than the British population."

and

"It is of course worth noting that a significant number of foreign born people have been awarded British citizenship in recent years and are thus likely inflating the actual British conviction rate."

Edited

As I said, I do not engage with people who call me snide and insulting, especially when they can’t point to a single example of it.

Whammyyammy · 28/07/2025 15:39

I fully agree with your friend. If you emigrate to another country learn that countries culture and language, not try and impose your own culture or laws.

nomas · 28/07/2025 15:38

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 15:19

You do realise that the article you quoted from says that the 19 sexual assault convictions by Afghans were out of total of 1,453?! That’s 1.3%.

Given that the 2024 UK population was c.69 million, Afghans would have to total 900,000 for their conviction rate to be proportionate, FAR FAR higher than the numbers you quoted.

I’d suggest taking a long, hard look in the mirror before mocking others’ grasp of statistics in future.

The article also says foreigners have a much higher conviction rate than British people charged with sexual assails, this is likely due to lack of access to a good defence lawyer.

One sexual assault is too many.

But 19 is too small number to judge an entire community.

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 15:26

The figures @nomas quoted originally indicate a similar imbalance when you realise that she had subsequently replaced then original 2,934 comparator with 200,000.

That's a good spot! And of course my figures from other European countries are being roundly ignored as well as I previously pointed out the poster's rudeness - which somehow negates relevant statistics, or something (especially when they don't suit).

I've just looked at the provided link now and it's actually horrifying - quite why anyone would link that when wanting to prove that certain nationalities don't assult more is beyond me.

"The figures would mean that the conviction rate for foreign nationals is 5.75 per 100,000 of the population and 1.77 per 100,000 for the British population - a conviction rate which is 224% higher. In other words, foreign nationals are convicted for sexual assault on a female at a rate 2.24 times higher than the British population."

and

"It is of course worth noting that a significant number of foreign born people have been awarded British citizenship in recent years and are thus likely inflating the actual British conviction rate."

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 15:19

nomas · 28/07/2025 14:52

Nope, not disingenuous at all. Migration Central says there were 19 sexual offences by Afghans in 2024.

Google says there are 116k identifying as Afghan in the 2021 census, with an additional 86k born in Afghanistan.

Plus the UK took in an additional 25k after this census in 2021.

So, as I said, any credible data agency would laugh at your sample data of 19 offences out of all these thousands of Afghans.

https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p/up-to-third-of-sexual-assaults-committed

You do realise that the article you quoted from says that the 19 sexual assault convictions by Afghans were out of total of 1,453?! That’s 1.3%.

Given that the 2024 UK population was c.69 million, Afghans would have to total 900,000 for their conviction rate to be proportionate, FAR FAR higher than the numbers you quoted.

I’d suggest taking a long, hard look in the mirror before mocking others’ grasp of statistics in future.

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 15:04

Locutus2000 · 28/07/2025 10:09

And Islam is a religion that anyone can join… it’s not a race. To say that criticism of Islam is “racist” assumes all Muslims are “brown”, which is itself arguably racist!

Lazy get out of jail free card. We know who you mean when you talk about 'Muslims'.

Why are you trying to inflame racial tension here?… And insist that any concerns about how different cultures mix must be “racist”?

As I have repeatedly said, this is nothing to do with race. I was good friends with a Bangladeshi Muslim when I worked in central London… her ethnicity and religion weren’t and issue, though it helped that she did have similar cultural views and values (democracy, rule of UK law, freedom of religion/expeession, women’s rights etc). Also, I have no issues whatsoever with the two women from India on my team, and have known and been friends with people from many, many ethnicities throughout my life. Race doesn't matter to me at all…

And if someone has a fundamentally different outlook and values to me, it doesn’t matter if they are a blonde haired white-supremisist anarchist, or an brown-skinned Islamist from Somalia, I would have an issue.

I have never “shouted” on MN before but there’s a first time for everything: THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACE! The obsession that some posters have about race is just crazy.

nomas · 28/07/2025 14:52

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 14:40

@nomas

You are being completely disingenuous with your figures.

The table you attached was from the Met Police (so presumably only London) and the numbers showed 19 out of a total of 2,934… not the 140,000 or 200,000 you subsequently quoted. I admit I got some of my calculations wrong too, and based on the number of Afghans in the UK in 2023, they were 15 times, not 20 times more likely to be charged with a sexual offence.

Also, your choice of article to link to subsequently was interesting given its conclusion that “…foreign nationals accounted for a quarter of all “rape of a female over 16” convictions last year, despite them accounting for roughly just 10.9% of the population.”

I’m not saying all Afghan men are “bad”… most won’t commute sexual assault, but the deeply misogynistic culture that they have been steeped in, will doubtless have an impact (as it would if white English boys had been brought up there).

Nope, not disingenuous at all. Migration Central says there were 19 sexual offences by Afghans in 2024.

Google says there are 116k identifying as Afghan in the 2021 census, with an additional 86k born in Afghanistan.

Plus the UK took in an additional 25k after this census in 2021.

So, as I said, any credible data agency would laugh at your sample data of 19 offences out of all these thousands of Afghans.

https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p/up-to-third-of-sexual-assaults-committed

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 14:44

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 10:08

19 Afghans is not a big enough sample size to judge an entire ethnicity.

Again, we fortunately have statistics available from more than one country. As I've stated twice now, in Germany, Afghan men are charged with rape at a rate ten times greater than German men.

The figures @nomas quoted originally indicate a similar imbalance when you realise that she had subsequently replaced then original 2,934 comparator with 200,000.

GoodPudding · 28/07/2025 14:40

@nomas

You are being completely disingenuous with your figures.

The table you attached was from the Met Police (so presumably only London) and the numbers showed 19 out of a total of 2,934… not the 140,000 or 200,000 you subsequently quoted. I admit I got some of my calculations wrong too, and based on the number of Afghans in the UK in 2023, they were 15 times, not 20 times more likely to be charged with a sexual offence.

Also, your choice of article to link to subsequently was interesting given its conclusion that “…foreign nationals accounted for a quarter of all “rape of a female over 16” convictions last year, despite them accounting for roughly just 10.9% of the population.”

I’m not saying all Afghan men are “bad”… most won’t commute sexual assault, but the deeply misogynistic culture that they have been steeped in, will doubtless have an impact (as it would if white English boys had been brought up there).

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 12:31

Given you have called me and snide and insulting, I won't be engaging with you.

Okay, but I'll keep reiterating the stats whenever you bring up the 19 rapists being too low a number to be indicative thing.

TempestTost · 28/07/2025 10:35

lljkk · 28/07/2025 09:56

Still a work in progress, obviously :)
Gatherings of my family have become like a meet up of the United Nations. In the 1970s my family was overwhelmingly WASP but now There's a huge diversity of cultural backgrounds in who my cousins and their kids have married or had serious relationships with. Peruvian, Indian, Korean, Curasao, El Salvadoran, white English... hick right wingers, vaccine skeptics, Republicans, Democrats, creationist born-again religious socialising fairly peacefully.

At least that was how it worked pre-Covid. Since my grandmother died, some people in my dad's generation are becoming frail, some personality conflicts (mostly not political) and Covid meant people couldnt' see each other, there is now less socialising.

Most American are hugely diverse & comfortable with the diversity. Among the racist thugs who embrace MAGA are people shocked to discover ethnic identity of JD Vance's wife. The head of the FBI (is unqualified but also) an ethnic minority guy. Nikki Haley would have won Presidency if Trump hadn't run in 2024. I would argue the melting pot has worked fairly well and if American political and regulatory institutions survive the Project2025 Assault, the melting pot will continue to work ok.

Maybe this is your point, but the melting pot is a distinctly differernt approach than multi-culturalism. The idea is that everyone goes into the pot whatever they are and comes out as an American.

In practice we see that of course many people retain strong elements of their culture, be they Italian, Chinese, Mexican, or whatever, but they are also distinctly American. You see this attitude even with many immigrants to the US.

It's interesting that your examples are largely on the conservative side. It doesn't surprise me at all about Vance's wife. There are lots of conservative immigrants in the US, conservative Hispanics, black conservatives, and gay conservatives. Sure, there are little pockets of racial supremacist and other weirdos, but they are not mainstream. Even the KKK is struggling these days which we should be thankful for.

The people who are really surprised are typically Democrat voting while professional Americans, who can't seem to think of members of those groups as just American with a full range of opinions on politics and society.

ThatBoldBear · 28/07/2025 10:26

Locutus2000 · 28/07/2025 10:09

And Islam is a religion that anyone can join… it’s not a race. To say that criticism of Islam is “racist” assumes all Muslims are “brown”, which is itself arguably racist!

Lazy get out of jail free card. We know who you mean when you talk about 'Muslims'.

We sure do, Buddhists.

ThatBoldBear · 28/07/2025 10:23

lljkk · 28/07/2025 09:56

Still a work in progress, obviously :)
Gatherings of my family have become like a meet up of the United Nations. In the 1970s my family was overwhelmingly WASP but now There's a huge diversity of cultural backgrounds in who my cousins and their kids have married or had serious relationships with. Peruvian, Indian, Korean, Curasao, El Salvadoran, white English... hick right wingers, vaccine skeptics, Republicans, Democrats, creationist born-again religious socialising fairly peacefully.

At least that was how it worked pre-Covid. Since my grandmother died, some people in my dad's generation are becoming frail, some personality conflicts (mostly not political) and Covid meant people couldnt' see each other, there is now less socialising.

Most American are hugely diverse & comfortable with the diversity. Among the racist thugs who embrace MAGA are people shocked to discover ethnic identity of JD Vance's wife. The head of the FBI (is unqualified but also) an ethnic minority guy. Nikki Haley would have won Presidency if Trump hadn't run in 2024. I would argue the melting pot has worked fairly well and if American political and regulatory institutions survive the Project2025 Assault, the melting pot will continue to work ok.

The idea is to avoid US cultural issues, not replicate them.

nomas · 28/07/2025 10:23

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 10:08

19 Afghans is not a big enough sample size to judge an entire ethnicity.

Again, we fortunately have statistics available from more than one country. As I've stated twice now, in Germany, Afghan men are charged with rape at a rate ten times greater than German men.

Given you have called me and snide and insulting, I won't be engaging with you.

Locutus2000 · 28/07/2025 10:09

GoodPudding · 27/07/2025 08:45

A lot of Muslims are assimilated, but there are substantial numbers that aren’t, and live in communities that don’t hold to the five core values I outlined in a previous post that are the bedrock of our society.

And Islam is a religion that anyone can join… it’s not a race. To say that criticism of Islam is “racist” assumes all Muslims are “brown”, which is itself arguably racist!

Edited

And Islam is a religion that anyone can join… it’s not a race. To say that criticism of Islam is “racist” assumes all Muslims are “brown”, which is itself arguably racist!

Lazy get out of jail free card. We know who you mean when you talk about 'Muslims'.

SpaceRaccoon · 28/07/2025 10:08

19 Afghans is not a big enough sample size to judge an entire ethnicity.

Again, we fortunately have statistics available from more than one country. As I've stated twice now, in Germany, Afghan men are charged with rape at a rate ten times greater than German men.

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 09:57

NorthXNorthWest · 28/07/2025 07:36

The only thing the only thing that has been underscored is how far you sit to the right.

Why this response to that post? It’s talking about democracy, women’s rights etc

lljkk · 28/07/2025 09:56

ThatBoldBear · 26/07/2025 12:05

How would you judge the outcome 50 years later?

Still a work in progress, obviously :)
Gatherings of my family have become like a meet up of the United Nations. In the 1970s my family was overwhelmingly WASP but now There's a huge diversity of cultural backgrounds in who my cousins and their kids have married or had serious relationships with. Peruvian, Indian, Korean, Curasao, El Salvadoran, white English... hick right wingers, vaccine skeptics, Republicans, Democrats, creationist born-again religious socialising fairly peacefully.

At least that was how it worked pre-Covid. Since my grandmother died, some people in my dad's generation are becoming frail, some personality conflicts (mostly not political) and Covid meant people couldnt' see each other, there is now less socialising.

Most American are hugely diverse & comfortable with the diversity. Among the racist thugs who embrace MAGA are people shocked to discover ethnic identity of JD Vance's wife. The head of the FBI (is unqualified but also) an ethnic minority guy. Nikki Haley would have won Presidency if Trump hadn't run in 2024. I would argue the melting pot has worked fairly well and if American political and regulatory institutions survive the Project2025 Assault, the melting pot will continue to work ok.

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 09:56

NorthXNorthWest · 28/07/2025 09:41

Values aren't exclusive to countries.

What do you mean? You like those values but think other countries have them?

nomas · 28/07/2025 09:44

bestchooseanother · 27/07/2025 15:50

Oh dear. Though I suppose it's better that you just don't understand relative vs. absolute frequency, rather than that you're trying to say it's fine that muslims rape at a higher rate!

Let's have a little basic maths, shall we.

I'd rather not use rapists though.

So...

Imagine a pack of dogs, some black and some white. If 10 black dogs bite people and 2 white dogs bite people, presumably you would think more black dogs had bitten people than white dogs. And you would, of course, be correct. But this does not mean that black dogs are necessarily more likely to bite people.

Imagine there were 100 black dogs in the pack, and only 10 white dogs.

10 out of the 100 black dogs have bitten people, which means 1 in every 10 black dogs has bitten someone, which means 10% of black dogs have bitten someone.

2 out of the 10 white dogs have bitten people, which means 2 in every 10 white dogs has bitten someone, which means 20% of white dogs have bitten someone.

And 20% is more than 10% (double, in fact), so white dogs are actually twice as likely to bite as black dogs. Even though black dogs do more actual biting in total, as there are ten times more of them.

So white men do more raping, as there are significantly more white men in the UK than non-white men. But proportionally, (some) non-white men are more likely to rape. Statistics have shown Afghans are around twenty as likely to rape as white men. But (luckily), rape isn't all that common and there also aren't very many Afghans in Britain. So a very few men doing something twenty times more often than something that's not done all that often, is not going to be a big number.

Hope this helps.

ETA Sorry, forgot to add quote - this is (obviously) to @nomas

Edited

If you went to a data agency and asked them to assess a sample size of 19 Afghans who had committed sexual offences out of 140,000 Afghans in the UK, they would laugh you out of the building.

19 Afghans is not a big enough sample size to judge an entire ethnicity.

But oh dear, it’s clear you won’t understand this either.

NorthXNorthWest · 28/07/2025 09:41

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 08:24

Which countries’ values would you prefer?

Values aren't exclusive to countries.

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