Is my best friend racist?

Most immigrants do follow these rules. And many white people don’t follow them.

And yet you are only picking on immigrants. Why is that?

I think the term ‘British values’ is a weak one, but the idea that integration is necessary for permanent immingration to succeed is just common sense. There are only really two logical outcomes of inward migration: integration into the host culture or balkanisation. The latter, as we saw in the Balkans, leads to social tensions, reductions in civil liberties like free speech to try to control those social tensions, and can end in civil war. It’s possible to have high levels of culturally uninterested immigration if they are expats who go home and don’t put increasing pressure on the host population. That’s the model popular in the Middle East.

What she’s said is true. She’s just stating facts. People do tend to stick to what they know. Hence the large British ex Pat communities abroad.

As part of the Prevent program, the British govt defined British values as...

Democracy
The rule of law
Individual liberty
Mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs

Rule of law
Democracy
Individual liberty
Mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs

Under individual liberty, girls should not be forced to wear hijabs or made to have arranged marriages. There is still a lot of honour killings in this country.

Under mutual respect and tolerance - Language helps community cohesion and encourages shared experiences. We have so many people who cannot speak English fluently in this country and they end up living in certain geographic pockets within towns. This does not support social cohesion.

Also, it seems to me anyone can criticise Christianity but when we have criticism of some other particular faiths, there is anger and protest. This country was built on freedom of speech, this should be embraced.

Most countries is an overstep and it doesn’t invalidate the PP’s comparison. It’s wrong to only compare with other similar countries when looking for a global example that highlights a cultural difference, but you will still find cultural differences. They will just be more subtle because of shared heritage.

There are 48 Muslim majority countries in the world, most of which have social norms and laws that are broadly duppprtive of Islamic teaching. This includes varying degrees of restriction in clothing. Most of these countries have some form of autocratic government. Many have internationally competitive tax regimes that encourage inward investment. Few allow foreign nationals to naturalise as citizens base purely on residency.

@pearcrumblee said other cultures living in this country ‘should embrace our British values’

I’m asking what those values are.

Why is that a ludicrous question? Did you also think @pearcrumblee ‘s comment was ludicrous?

The point is, it’s a totally different model to most countries so not a valid comparison.

That’s a ludicrously reductive question. You can’t reduce culture to a list of values. Culture is the complex and subtle interplay of shared heritage, practices, dispositions and social expectations. Most of it is unsaid. Anyone who has spent any time living in different cultures will have experienced putting their foot in it because they didn’t know the unsaid ‘rule’ and that’s just as true of people moving to Britain.

I regard multiculturalism as an utter failure and one I hope that will be put right.

So what do you hope Reform will do then? Send immigrants and children of immigrants back? What will be your threshold for people who can stay?

Saudi has a different model for finding government. They don’t charge anyone income tax. They do charge 20% corporation tax and they tax exports in line with OPEC.

What are your British values and how have immigrants not embraced them?

They also don’t pay tax, which is a huge incentive.

By your logic we should deport white people because most murderers and rapists in the UK are white.

Expats and tourist are key words. They never give them permanent residency or ciridhip, so they never cause demographic or cultural change that impacts the native population. They are all there temporarily for work. They have no entitlement to Saudi Arabia’s generous handouts, education or healthcare. They must have comprehensive health insurance and they must leave when required to.

Hear, hear.

Funny how you claim ‘no one is happy’ and yet millions of people, of all backgrounds, are living, working, thriving, and building families in this very society you say is on the verge of implosion. The ‘discontent’ you mention? That’s not proof multiculturalism is failing - it’s proof that politicians and media have been dining out on fear and division for years. And here’s a thought: maybe if people stopped demanding immigrants perform gratitude while putting up with hostility, there’d be a lot more harmony to go around. Just because you don’t want to hear success stories doesn’t mean they’re not happening all around you.

Right on cue - blaming underfunded, overstretched public services on immigrants instead of decades of political neglect and budget cuts. The NHS isn’t struggling because a nurse had an accent. It’s struggling because it’s been gutted by the very people some of you keep voting for. But sure, let’s scapegoat the staff who are literally holding it together. Very original.

I find the irony stunning that you think that British people adapt to the norms of the places they go.

Your friend is right and I agree with her. It's not racism, it's a fact.

Fawlty Towers with the stereotype dumb Irishman and equally dumb Spanish waiter which was deliberate to emphasise the petty bigotry of the small minded English man. Don't get me wrong Flowery Twats and you'll have to sew them back on first are phrases I will take to my grave

But the thing about Fawlty Towers is it poked fun at everyone. Even Basil Fawlty was depicted as someone who lacked self awareness and wasn’t the brightest. Lots of characters on there covering all racial basis’s who weren’t painted in a good light. But I guess some people will pick and choose the bits that meet their narrative….

But they haven’t have they? The threat of terrorism on our streets is something we have had to face for a number of years. There would be many more attacks if our police and security services didn’t intercept them. And that a lot of the boat people come here from countries like Syria and Afghanistan, the future’s not looking good for us…..

jim’ll fix it ended on our TVs in 1994? When he died is irrelevant in the context of the quote, which was suggesting people sit down and watch Jim’ll fix it. And after his death pretty much everyone acknowledged what he’d done. The evidence was there for all to see. I never saw anyone deny what he’d done. Problem being it only came to light after his death.

Uh huh.. and the differences you experienced... were they - by chance - cultural?!

I don't want to be mean as I do know not everybody has the opportunity to travel widely, but the fact you have thoroughly dismissed the very notion of culture when you acknowledge to have no understanding of it is slightly ridiculous. Try travelling outside Europe, maybe to the countries most immigrants come from, and watch the people. Specifically the male people. Or just go to an immigrant-heavy area of the UK! And then wonder whether you want them living next door, with full access to you, your female relatives, and your children. Like I say, I really have travelled widely, and there are many people I've met across all the world who I respect, but I am thankful do not live in my country. Not because they're bad people, but because their culture is not compatible with my (our, British) way of life.

Nope. There have been muslims in Britain for centuries, that is very much not the same thing as "The Muslim community has lived here for centuries". And not that many centuries, the first muslims were recorded in the 18th century, and they didn't form any sort of 'community', they married local women. People from the African continent have certainly been here for many, many centuries - definitely since Roman times. But almost all Africans back then were certainly north African, i.e. Berber (this is of course pre-Arab imperialist settlers). There is a possibility that there was a sub-Saharan black soldier on Hadrian's Wall in Roman times as it is recorded that the African emperor Severus was so terrified by the sight of him, he demanded he be removed as he was certainly bad luck (because of his dark skin). Of course, there may well have been others who weren't noticed by emperors, but it certainly suggests that what we would call 'black people' were not a usual sight.

Not to deny that there most definitely have been African immigrants to Britain over the centuries, including sub-Saharan. But until the 19th century, most were sur-Saharan simply because a) the Sahara really is quite the obstacle and b) though we don't learn about it, the Africans actually did have their own shit going on and weren't just focussed on moving to Britain. And pre- and post- the 19th century, most, if not (probably) all, integrated entirely into the native population. So, very many 'white British' people have black, or non-white ancestors, even though they are entirely British, culturally and physically. The (absurd - and very, very racist) concept of segregating people according to their skin colour, where they're not expected to integrate and instead should adhere to whatever 'culture' is associated with their melanin (?!) is very much a mid-20th Century invention. I personally don't think we're the richer for it, I think it was better when we really didn't care where someone came from, when all that mattered was where they chose to call home.