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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:30

SummerEve · 24/07/2025 23:29

I get that. But seriously, what are you actually going to DO to make a meaningful contribution to the prevention of violence? Actions speak louder than words.

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I don’t know. You’re right, I should have a think about that. And perhaps anyone who’s horrified by this child’s death should too. (There may be posters on this thread who already are.)

OP posts:
CarterBeatsTheDevil · 24/07/2025 23:29

RantzNotBantz · 24/07/2025 23:13

We are a civilised society with resources and values.

I am not prepared for my own values to be dictated by those who are evil, uncivilised, wicked, selfish and who have no regard for human life or quality of life,

If I kill, or allow the state to kill on my behalf as a reaction to their crimes I am allowing their behaviour to dictate my actions.Tneir behaviour will have turned me into a killer.

Killing people is wrong. So wrong that killers do not deserve the privilege of freedom in a civilised society. They can be locked up for life to keep that freedom from them and to ensure they cannot kill or harm again.

And that enables us to keep our dignity and values in a civilised society.

This is what I think.

randomchap · 24/07/2025 23:29

bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:24

I wonder how many miscarriages of justice there have been for child killers.

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At least one, Stefan Kiszko

WhereIsMyJumper · 24/07/2025 23:29

AllTheChaos · 24/07/2025 23:24

So murdering innocent people is fine? (Given miscarriages of justice etc) Reducing the likelihood of guilty people being punished is ok? (A serious sentence like this demands higher standards of evidence, plus juries are much warier - as in cases where chemical castration was used as punishment for rape etc, heck rape cases full stop) Forcing people to murder as part of their job is ok - with the damage it will do them? Doing this whilst not reducing crime is fine? (It has been shown the death penalty doesn’t act as a deterrent). You want murder used as punishment, with no possibility of redemption, knowing innocent people will die and it won’t reduce crime? Given all that, I don’t think it’s the people who are against the death penalty that are the disturbed ones.

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You make a very good point, in a court of law, would a jury be more reticent to deliver a guilty verdict if they knew the punishment was death rather than imprisonment… so would we have actually more murderers go free.

SummerEve · 24/07/2025 23:29

bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:26

Fair point. I just saw the story and felt so upset.

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I get that. But seriously, what are you actually going to DO to make a meaningful contribution to the prevention of violence? Actions speak louder than words.

RantzNotBantz · 24/07/2025 23:28

bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:16

I look at that child’s innocent face and I see my own DC at that age. It’s horrific.

Of course it is horrific.

No one thinks it is anything other than horrific., whatever their views on capital punishment

Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:28

WhereIsMyJumper · 24/07/2025 23:26

News stories like these whip up an incredible amount of emotion, of course everyone is horrified by the murderers actions and we can feel deeply disturbed and angry and upset for a long time afterwards. This is why I try and avoid this type of news story myself.

But, here is the thing, we cannot change laws in this country - especially ones as serious as reinstating the death penalty - on emotion. They have to be based on rational, logical thinking. With the emotion taken out.

Based on logical thinking, what do we gain from keeping this person alive? Ok, I know that’s still an emotional response. But it’s just fucking horrific and the world would be a better place if he and others like him weren’t in it.

OP posts:
novanova5 · 24/07/2025 23:27

@ilovesooty I could say the same to you 🤦‍♀️

Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:26

SummerEve · 24/07/2025 23:26

Of course I feel strongly about it, but I don’t think that arguing in favour of the DP on Mumsnet is going to be even remotely helpful in preventing these awful crimes.

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Fair point. I just saw the story and felt so upset.

OP posts:
WhereIsMyJumper · 24/07/2025 23:26

News stories like these whip up an incredible amount of emotion, of course everyone is horrified by the murderers actions and we can feel deeply disturbed and angry and upset for a long time afterwards. This is why I try and avoid this type of news story myself.

But, here is the thing, we cannot change laws in this country - especially ones as serious as reinstating the death penalty - on emotion. They have to be based on rational, logical thinking. With the emotion taken out.

ilovesooty · 24/07/2025 23:26

novanova5 · 24/07/2025 23:12

@WhereIsMyJumper It's truly not. If you can justify why this thing should continue to exist, it says a great deal about you.

Please stop attacking posters because their opinion differs from yours.

SummerEve · 24/07/2025 23:26

bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:23

Do you not feel that strongly about it? I mean, how can anyone not?

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Of course I feel strongly about it, but I don’t think that arguing in favour of the DP on Mumsnet is going to be even remotely helpful in preventing these awful crimes.

Treesnthings · 24/07/2025 23:26

I’m completely opposed to the death penalty for reasons already given above. But also because generally those who have committed the most heinous crimes would chose death if they had the choice (Epstein, West, murderer of John Hunts family, the men who kill their families and then attempt to kill themselves (as reported today, Fermanagh). They chose not to face their crimes, they don’t deserve that choice.

AllTheChaos · 24/07/2025 23:26

YawnSoTired · 24/07/2025 23:19

A life 4 a life. Accidents are different but 4 murder yes.

So state sanctioned murder is fine? Even when people are later found to be innocent? Right.

Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:25

RantzNotBantz · 24/07/2025 23:24

In cases like this and things such as mass shootings with eye witnesses where we know without a doubt who has done it, it's hard to argue that these people deserve to live.

It isn’t a case of ‘deserving to live’ though. As it happens I don’t think they do deserve life and the privileges that life brings us.

But we as a society do not deserve to be put in the position of killers. And we don’t need to be. We can just lock them up, and it could be for life.

I agree with your post, but I would substitute “could” with “ should”.

OP posts:
Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:24

randomchap · 24/07/2025 23:23

Miscarriages of justice are a thing.

Timothy Evans
Mahmood Mattan
George Kelly

Just off the top of my head, there are plenty more

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I wonder how many miscarriages of justice there have been for child killers.

OP posts:
AllTheChaos · 24/07/2025 23:24

novanova5 · 24/07/2025 23:03

I completely agree with you, OP. Anyone attempting to rationalise why we shouldn't reinstate the death penalty is just as disturbed as those who committed the crimes, to be honest.

So murdering innocent people is fine? (Given miscarriages of justice etc) Reducing the likelihood of guilty people being punished is ok? (A serious sentence like this demands higher standards of evidence, plus juries are much warier - as in cases where chemical castration was used as punishment for rape etc, heck rape cases full stop) Forcing people to murder as part of their job is ok - with the damage it will do them? Doing this whilst not reducing crime is fine? (It has been shown the death penalty doesn’t act as a deterrent). You want murder used as punishment, with no possibility of redemption, knowing innocent people will die and it won’t reduce crime? Given all that, I don’t think it’s the people who are against the death penalty that are the disturbed ones.

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 24/07/2025 23:24

novanova5 · 24/07/2025 23:18

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie You say what you need to say to ensure a better night's sleep.

This makes even less sense than your previous post. Crying on MN and baying for blood doesn’t give you a moral high ground, so please stop pretending it does.

RantzNotBantz · 24/07/2025 23:24

In cases like this and things such as mass shootings with eye witnesses where we know without a doubt who has done it, it's hard to argue that these people deserve to live.

It isn’t a case of ‘deserving to live’ though. As it happens I don’t think they do deserve life and the privileges that life brings us.

But we as a society do not deserve to be put in the position of killers. And we don’t need to be. We can just lock them up, and it could be for life.

randomchap · 24/07/2025 23:23

YawnSoTired · 24/07/2025 23:19

A life 4 a life. Accidents are different but 4 murder yes.

Miscarriages of justice are a thing.

Timothy Evans
Mahmood Mattan
George Kelly

Just off the top of my head, there are plenty more

Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:23

SummerEve · 24/07/2025 23:21

If you feel that strongly about it, why don’t you do something constructive that would actually have real world value? Enter social work. Volunteer for a relevant charity. Look into fostering.

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Do you not feel that strongly about it? I mean, how can anyone not?

OP posts:
Original poster
bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:22

@UnderCoverB0ss

www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/19703048.star-hobson-brockhill-caught-cctv-punching-slapping-baby/

OP posts:
SummerEve · 24/07/2025 23:21

bluewanda · 24/07/2025 23:16

I look at that child’s innocent face and I see my own DC at that age. It’s horrific.

If you feel that strongly about it, why don’t you do something constructive that would actually have real world value? Enter social work. Volunteer for a relevant charity. Look into fostering.

ilovesooty · 24/07/2025 23:20

novanova5 · 24/07/2025 23:03

I completely agree with you, OP. Anyone attempting to rationalise why we shouldn't reinstate the death penalty is just as disturbed as those who committed the crimes, to be honest.

Ridiculous. In general, civilised countries don't have the death penalty.

IShouldNotCoco · 24/07/2025 23:20

I don’t want to raise my children in a county that has state sanctioned murder. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

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