To think Richard III blatantly killed the Princes in Tower?

The other big what if is Prince Henry, James I’s eldest son who died around 1610. It depends how much it was Charles I’s personality that triggered the major conflicts that resulted in the Civil War and Cromwell’s protectorate; maybe not very much and it would all have happened anyway, but it would have been different. I agree that the death of Prince Arthur was much more consequential.

I have a few what ifs,
Arthur,
Henry IV not taking the throne, would have been the Mortimer line after Richard II, empress Matilda (though her son did rule eventually),
if E of Y had been male then would Richard III have had support, even if EIV marriage to EV was invalid (I’m not convinced).
Princess Charlotte

I’d forgotten Arthur. I always think the idea that only 11 first born sons of kings have become monarch themselves since William the Conqueror is insanely low.

No Kaiser Wilhelm, and his contribution to WW1.

If Prince Arthur had survived - and had children by Katharine of Aragon - then also no Henry VIII/C of E.

Though I think the English and Scottish thrones would have united eventually. After all, HVII married Margaret Tudor off into Scotland which gave a bloodline for that to happen.

At least Henry Tudor was only about 9 years older than EoY. I feel most sorry for their DD Mary, who had to shag the French King when she was in her teens and he was more than 30 years older. Grim!

I’m sure we all know the answer to

Q. What did Queen Victoria's family give to the nobility of Europe ?

A. Haemophilia

such was the desire to marry blue blood

Inbreeding. Have you seen the Hapsburg jaw…

Can we dress up. I’m going as Richard

No, me too. I doubt it was love, she knew what he was and I doubt she was a fool, given who she was raised by. She knew what had to be done if literally any one of them was to survive the wars. His portrait makes him look so grim, poor lovely Elizabeth having to crawl into bed with him. I definitely find myself biased in favour of the women of the era and find so much empathy for them all, the men are all disgusting!

Lordy!! We agree on something

Brilliant post. Henry VII’s penny pinching reputation and sallow portrait make me suspect it was far from a love match. Despite most threats being dead, I suspect he had to be paranoid to survive and keep enough funds to eliminate future threats. He couldn’t relax and become a patron of the arts.

In David Mitchell’s really quite funny history book, Unruly, he describes this all nicely. HVII had to make a whole load of bullshit up to merge into a big fat incoherent claim to the throne. Conquering! …..but my grandparents! Elizabeth of York! He’d have had (IMO) none of those, except the jazzy non-primogeniture cocktail of blood, if the Princes had lived. My opinion re RIII declaring to marry EoY has always been that it was to put off HVII (or anyone else) having her, as agreements and even rumours of marriage could destroy a noble woman’s prospects. She was sullied by the link to RIII but Henry had no choice but to overcome this issue as he had no other angle to take the throne. EoY had to take what she could bloody get. Turned out to be a love match, they say!

Henry claimed the throne by right of conquest, but he aided public acceptance of his legitimacy by marrying the princes’ sister. There were rumours Richard III had intended to marry Elizabeth of York too and poisoned his wife to do so.

Not really (re Bosworth), because the way RIII acted after the king’s death was purely right time, and opportunity. It all happened because of their ages and vulnerability under him as Lord Protector. He struck at that vital moment, any later and the momentum would have died and he’d have just been what he was meant to be as per EIV’s wishes. Also he was helped by the nobility’s hatred of the Woodvilles. If the princes grew up, the W’s would have become even stronger with more positions of power and the whole course of everything would have gone in a whole other direction. EoY wouldn’t have had to accept Henry VII in marriage as she’d have better prospects, H would have had way less support and pretext for invasion. The nobles (as long as they were kept sweet) never wanted wars and invaders if they could help it, it cost a fortune and everyone hated the instability. That’s why (IMO) RIII definitely did kill them, because letting them grow up would have screwed any chance he had of ruling in peace. He should have won at Bosworth really, all being correct, it just turned against him and he lost the grip on it. HVII would just have been a fly to swat if the boys were taken care of as per EIV’s plan; Richard overseeing, Woodvilles would be in every nook and cranny but crucially no war. I genuinely think they would have rallied behind the teenage Princes against HVII and with wider support, they’d have won. We’d have never have had the Tudors!

And no Victoria might have meant no haemophilia spread across European royalty, no Russian Revolution against the Tsar…

I read that it was likely a hantavirus.

It’s fascinating really to think that Edward IV’s death completely changed the face of the royal family. If he’d lived, Edward & Richard would’ve had heirs themselves. No Henry VIII, no Church of England, no uniting of the English and Scottish crowns.

Has any other death caused such a drastic shift? The death of Princess Charlotte perhaps. If she or her baby had lived then no Victoria.

No, because if Edward V had stayed king at the age of 12, then it would have been with the support of a fair chunk of the nobility., probably including his uncle Richard in some form or another (whether as Lord protector as his father wanted, or by Richard disappearing off to the north as much as possible to avoid the Woodvilles).

Henry Tudor gathered support for his invasion in part by a pledge to marry Elizabeth of York, Edward V’s older sister. That pledge would have been pretty meaningless if Edward V was on the throne (and E of Y as the King’s sister wouldn’t have been wasted on Henry Tudor but would have probably married a foreign noble/prince).

Looks like the general consensus is that if Richard hadn’t done it, Henry would’ve !!
If Edward had become king do you think that both Richard and Henry would’ve challenged him ? Would the Battle Of Bosworth ended up as a 3 way ?

Or just squirrel them ( or the surviving one ) away to a more secure location.

Which is exactly what killing them is. You can't get much more secure than dead.

Maybe we should have a group visit to DoT?

So Starks are York and Lancaster is Lannister..
The North remembers.

I know. But I’m going to wear that purple ribbon and if I spot you in the theatre I’ll buy you a drink 🤣🤣

Off to watch Game of Thrones. This thread has spurred me on for murder and mayhem

Would so love a Time Machine.