To think Richard III blatantly killed the Princes in Tower?

HenryTudor1485 · 2025-07-23T22:37:15+00:00

He’s undergone a bit of a reappraisal recently but I’m not having it. He was a wrong un. He clearly had his nephews killed. He had motive, means and opportunity. The dates when they “disappeared” all add up. He done the crime. He never did the time (unless you consider being defeated in battle and being hacked to death “time”).

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 05/08/2025 09:49

SheilaFentiman · 05/08/2025 09:39

Quoting myself 😀

I don’t see how Starkey gets to “99% certain” John Evans went to France with Thomas Grey and Henry Tudor. But the theory that he was loyal to EIV/EV and in the household of one or both, and prospered enough to show that loyalty in later life, seems to be consistent with the facts and a lot less farfetched than the pseudonym theory!

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This, I'm don't recall him saying 99% certain of any alternative theory, but he certainly debunked the hypothesis that there were clues indicating John Evans was one of the Princes. His alternative theory is plausible but isn't essential to the 'debunking'.

SheilaFentiman · 05/08/2025 09:39

SheilaFentiman · 04/08/2025 19:11

Thanks for the link. I think Starkey is a bit of a nob as a person, but his analysis of (a) how there is an N there and (b) who John Evans probably was seems very reasonable

Quoting myself 😀

I don’t see how Starkey gets to “99% certain” John Evans went to France with Thomas Grey and Henry Tudor. But the theory that he was loyal to EIV/EV and in the household of one or both, and prospered enough to show that loyalty in later life, seems to be consistent with the facts and a lot less farfetched than the pseudonym theory!

SerendipityJane · 05/08/2025 09:30

DrPrunesqualer · 04/08/2025 20:00

Serendipity
I think you should start a thread on that

i bet mumsnetters could go on discussing that for 40 pages 🤣🤣

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But then when could they argue over mathematics ?

ItisIbeserk · 05/08/2025 09:25

Did you watch the YT? What do you think of the points he makes? ETA sorry, I meant to quote @DrPrunesqualer.

DrPrunesqualer · 04/08/2025 20:00

SerendipityJane · 04/08/2025 17:52

If they did survive then it made no difference to our life today ...

A difference that makes no difference is no difference .... (discuss 😀)

Serendipity
I think you should start a thread on that

i bet mumsnetters could go on discussing that for 40 pages 🤣🤣

DrPrunesqualer · 04/08/2025 19:58

SheilaFentiman · 04/08/2025 16:59

Even Matthew Lewis - a professional historian who believes they survived - considers 'John Evans' an interesting theory but without sufficient evidence to make it compelling.

I haven't seen the YT but I think it's possible to have a bias to one side or the other and still assess evidence on a particular point with objectivity.

Agree
We need dna testing.

MrsGuyOfGisbo · 04/08/2025 19:21

Yes /intriguing about Evans

SheilaFentiman · 04/08/2025 19:11

Thanks for the link. I think Starkey is a bit of a nob as a person, but his analysis of (a) how there is an N there and (b) who John Evans probably was seems very reasonable

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 04/08/2025 17:59

His well known bias towards the Tudors and unquestionable acceptance of the statements by Thomas More put his theories under question.

Bet he doesn't.

SerendipityJane · 04/08/2025 17:52

If they did survive then it made no difference to our life today ...

A difference that makes no difference is no difference .... (discuss 😀)

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 04/08/2025 17:46

PrissyGalore · 04/08/2025 15:19

We give more weight to Starkey because he’s actually a real historian. Someone who studied and did the hard stuff not someone who just ‘does their own research’.

...and, most of all, he explains why it's nonsense.

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SheilaFentiman · 04/08/2025 16:59

Even Matthew Lewis - a professional historian who believes they survived - considers 'John Evans' an interesting theory but without sufficient evidence to make it compelling.

I haven't seen the YT but I think it's possible to have a bias to one side or the other and still assess evidence on a particular point with objectivity.

DrPrunesqualer · 04/08/2025 16:20

PrissyGalore · 04/08/2025 15:19

We give more weight to Starkey because he’s actually a real historian. Someone who studied and did the hard stuff not someone who just ‘does their own research’.

His well known bias towards the Tudors and unquestionable acceptance of the statements by Thomas More put his theories under question.
Admittedly most people have their favourites of the period and as such their theories are just that.

dogcatkitten · 04/08/2025 15:20

Very likely it was him, but I doubt we will ever know for certain.

PrissyGalore · 04/08/2025 15:19

We give more weight to Starkey because he’s actually a real historian. Someone who studied and did the hard stuff not someone who just ‘does their own research’.

DrPrunesqualer · 04/08/2025 14:42

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 04/08/2025 10:20

Great story, but totally debunked by David Starkey on YT.

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Why believe Starkey any more than any other theorists.

All theories can be debunked one way or another

@columnatedruinsdomino I find the whole stained glass and really quite magnificent church for such a small village interesting. It’s a real conundrum

MissPeachyKeen · 04/08/2025 14:17

camshaft · 04/08/2025 08:12

@NewAgeNewMei am currently reading the red queen by Phillippa Gregory and agree that Margaret Beaufort was the most likely person to kill so that Henry Tudor got to the throne!

You don't want to be led by Phillipa Gregory's writing!

SerendipityJane · 04/08/2025 10:24

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 04/08/2025 08:37

So she phoned Richard up and said "Can I send a couple of thugs to your prison to kill your nephews so Henry can kill you and take the throne?" and Richard replied "Fine, I've E-Mailed the guards to tell them to let your guys in. Will they be bringing their own pillows or should I provide some?"

Seems unlikely.

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Factual details are so bourgeois though ?

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 04/08/2025 10:20

columnatedruinsdomino · 04/08/2025 09:42

Edward V living out his life as John Evans in a remote Devon village is a lovely story. Visited Coldridge church near Crediton last year and you definitely get sucked in. The stained glass window of Edward V is a mystery. As a pp said, dna test on the bones of John Evans would be interesting.

Great story, but totally debunked by David Starkey on YT.

Gremlinsateit · 04/08/2025 10:01

@columnatedruinsdomino have you read Barbara Willard’s The Sprig of Broom? You might like it :)

columnatedruinsdomino · 04/08/2025 09:42

Edward V living out his life as John Evans in a remote Devon village is a lovely story. Visited Coldridge church near Crediton last year and you definitely get sucked in. The stained glass window of Edward V is a mystery. As a pp said, dna test on the bones of John Evans would be interesting.

SheilaFentiman · 04/08/2025 08:39

camshaft · 04/08/2025 08:12

@NewAgeNewMei am currently reading the red queen by Phillippa Gregory and agree that Margaret Beaufort was the most likely person to kill so that Henry Tudor got to the throne!

How did MB orchestrate it?

Not just motive - I agree she had motive, as did RIII, HVII and possibly Buckingham. But how and when?

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 04/08/2025 08:37

camshaft · 04/08/2025 08:12

@NewAgeNewMei am currently reading the red queen by Phillippa Gregory and agree that Margaret Beaufort was the most likely person to kill so that Henry Tudor got to the throne!

So she phoned Richard up and said "Can I send a couple of thugs to your prison to kill your nephews so Henry can kill you and take the throne?" and Richard replied "Fine, I've E-Mailed the guards to tell them to let your guys in. Will they be bringing their own pillows or should I provide some?"

Seems unlikely.

MrsGuyOfGisbo · 04/08/2025 08:28

This is the thread that keeps giving!!!
Thanks PP for the link to the documentary!

camshaft · 04/08/2025 08:12

@NewAgeNewMei am currently reading the red queen by Phillippa Gregory and agree that Margaret Beaufort was the most likely person to kill so that Henry Tudor got to the throne!