To think men only get praised for doing the bare minimum in relationships because expectations are on the floor?

And far too many women are happy to lap up the 'crazy ex' narrative and then fall over themselves to show that they are nothing like that.

Usually by showing how willing they are to accept the same shit behaviours that the ex complained about which got her labelled as crazy in the first place!

When it comes ro partners, people generally get what they accept.

If you forgive low level cheating/messaging/sexting in the early days, don't be surprised when you find yourself with an unfaithful man.

If he tries to exert boundaries around where you go/what you wear out of 'concern', don't be surprised when you find yourself with an insecure, controlling man.

If you do everything, don't be surprised when you end up doing everything.

I'm 51. I've dated men of all ages between 18 and 61 and I've never had a relationship with a man who didn't take an equal share of responsibility or make an effort because I've never got as far as a relationship with any of the men who were like that. I've known since I was 15 that I had no intention of 'keeping house' for a man or mummying a man and I don't think it's any surprise that I've never been expected to either.

I was married to a man who cheated. He was gone within 24 hours

I have dated men who were otherwise great except for... I dumped them.

It's no accident nor good fortune that the man I'm with now is a genuinely decent man. And, should I ever discover that he isn't, he'll be gone too.

I think men and some women have a role to play in men being better.

If Steve knew he'd lose his mates, or be kicked out the five a side team, or not invited to stag dos for not paying his child maintenance or for being a dickhead to his partner or the likes then Steve would be more likely to not be a dickhead.

If Steve also knew that financially neglecting his children or being abusive to a partner was likely to mean that his mum and sister wouldn't want to know him and that his sex lite was going to be over because no other woman would date him he'd also be less likely to be a dickhead.

It's unlikely to ever happen though as very few men give a shit how their mates behave, and many men will always talk round their mums and new partner about the "psycho" ex.

Yes it’s annoying. My mum used to say that H was babysitting! And yes the performance washing and clearing up is also a feature!

Hopefully the next generation will be better. My DS is a good cook and he does the washing for him and his girlfriend and doesn’t see it as an issue - just a job to be done. Although saying that my dad (who would have been mid 80s now) did 50% of household tasks and thought men who didn’t were lazy buggers.

I think this is the answer, unfortunately - though I agree with the sentiment that male behaviour is not women’s problem to fix. Why would they just decide as a collective to BE better? ‘I think I’d like to do more of the unpaid invisible thankless boring drudge work that’s exhausting and currently done mostly by women.’

I can relate to this

It fucking amazes me that 99% of men would rather be divorced by their wives than do a domestic chore. They literally give away their kids and half their wealth rather than do their fair share.

You think its 'on women' that adult men behave in unsatisfactory ways? That men will only ever meet the minimum standard set for them by women? That they're incapable of setting good standards for themselves and require lifelong vigilance and caretaking from a woman?

I suspect that men don’t believe they need fixing. They are happy how they are.

More decent men need to call out the twats.

People laugh at my DH when he picks up other guys for saying they are babysitting or the likes.

He's seen as the odd one in our local pub as he's regularly seen out and about with 3 kids, and even has them for whole weekends without me needing to batch cook or sort outfits before I go.

He was widowed with a toddler before we met and the difference in how he was treated compared to a female friend of his in the same circumstances really highlighted it to him, and really annoyed him.

I remember dumping a lad when we were 21. He didn't know how to cook fucking pasta. Goodbye. Very unattractive.
DH does his fair share, cooks more than I do but cleans less. Does more of the stuff around kids school and uni, far better at organising things than me. I do more house maintenance.

All our teen boys cook well, can sort of clean (this is a sticking point), if any of their partners don't pick them up on being lazy bastards I will encourage them to do so!

We had a day out, then a lot of cinema, theatre visits which I mostly arranged, few dinners out. Not straight to going to his house.
All evening things though. I felt like a vampire.
I did talk to him about going for days out, suggested times, gave him chances.

THIS!!!

Why is it ALWAYS the job of women to fix men and never the job of men to be better.

Ok but that’s what the thread is about.

Numerous times. I organised lots of activities: and paid for them.

It's why I've been divorced three times. I warned them. They didn't listen.
I'm not a skivvy.

The 'women, raise your bar' stuff. Yes, I hear you but it is beyond tiresome that everything is always put on women to fix. Every problem with male behaviour is handed over to women to address. It's hardly ever 'men, sort your shit out and behave like useful adults'.

Why are men not ashamed to behave like children who expect mummy to clean up after them and organise their lives? Because every excuse is made for them by society

Well, personally I care not a jot for ‘societal expectations’ I’m not interested in being with a dead beat…happily, I didn’t marry one.

Yes. I think the problem is that male behaviour across our society is so poor it leads men to believe they are outstanding human beings simply because they don’t hit, rape or murder people. And as for shopping or cooking or cleaning or caring for children - wow, that’s really going above and beyond.

Basically you never hear the term ‘hands on mum’, yet ‘hands on dad’ is a thing.

Yeah my DH does about 35% of stuff in the home and everyone thinks he’s amazing. I’m not saying he isn’t but I’m stil doing the most and no one celebrates that

You are missing OP’s point. It is not about what one woman put’s up with.

But societal expectations.

Societal expectations are not created by women alone.

I think part of the issue is these are seem as “women’s tasks”.

So a man doing women’s work is incredible. A woman doing women’s work is to be expected.

Well if he was si terrible or useless then why on earth be with him, a question asked of 99% threads on here with the endless complaints about men but their partners do nothing about it except go on to have more children with the useless man they complain did nothing for the first child

Why is other people at fault for commenting on a man when it is the woman that chooses to live with them?