To be glad schools are finally hitting back

Floor loot. Mind you there would not be abandoned pens and pencils in this situation.

Overly strict school just damage the mental health of the average kid, and those with SEN, while the ones it's aimed at probably don't care. Some policies are ablist.

There is a happy medium between.

I think it is relevant, when people are saying “If you don’t like the school’s rules, go to a different school!”, @Northernladdette! People can only do that if they DO have several schools to choose from.

Ok. I actually work in a top private school.

Most of the kids look like they’ve been dragged through a hedge backwards.

Wrong shoes? Get plimsoles from the office.
Shirt not tucked in? Told to tuck it in
Highlighted hair? So the fuck what.

How the rules are enforced is what’s key,

And 8 GCSEs (the most we could take) all As and Bs where the 5 A-C pass rate was something like 45%. I went to a rough South London comp in the 90s where there was little bullying, generally good behaviour, and a very deprived catchment.

You might LIKE uniform but there is little evidence it does anything of any real value.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8775910/

https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/school-uniform

Not always, no, but that point bears no relevance here 🙄

not quite, if you want to be accurate, look a bit deeper on what the private systems means in the countries you are comparing with.

And the point still stands. School with strict uniform at least in this country achieve better. It's not everything, but It's not a coincidence

My kids always said that the best teachers were the least strict and did not care about uniform rules. And achieved the best results from pupils. Children behaved for them in lessons because their teachers were engaging, interested and not patronising. This was secondary school.

Ok, I never wore school uniform. I went in jeans, tshirt and trainers.
I've got 16 GCSEs and four A-Levels (recognised equivalent qualifications, since I didn't go to school in England)...as did the majority of my classmates.

If you removed the state schools, you'd have to compare the private schools only with other private schools internationally (in many cases also without uniforms).
Otherwise, it wouldn't make any sense. Not sure you'd still get the results you're hoping for.

My DD got expelled for wearing plain black trousers after being bullied about having chunky legs.
All her female teachers wore trousers.
She did quote the equality act because she's SEN and her brain works like that.
She has now has a sponsored PhD offer.

My children are at an independent. Really high expectations of how your hair, shoes, uniform are presented. It's not that the uniform correlates with the grades but the expectations of discipline and pride. The children open doors, walk nicely, don't scream and shout and are all quite confident but don't back chat.

So many children get away with so much at he and school and become self centred, absorbed, who lack basic respect.

No one knows what the level of GCSE were at your school so it doesn't mean much.

Compare the performance of private schools here, with strict uniforms and state schools. Remove the state school, I bet the UK would jump a lot in the school league internationally.

It's not just about uniform, but it's an ethos that follow through the entire system.

Schools don't make up rules for the sake of it and just because you don't see the reason behind it doesnt mean that there isn't one.

And yet almost every one of the best state schools in the country have smart uniforms which are strictly enforced.

@BeachLife2 that is typical post hoc ergo propter hoc rationalisation.

I went to school in a tracksuit and got some of the best GCSEs at my school.

If strict uniform rules were a causal factor we’d be the top performing education system in the northern hemisphere.

No, they actually don't. It constantly gets drummed into young teachers in England that "the little things matter", "insist they stick to the small rules so you won't have to worry about the bigger issues"...That's just bullshit.
I never wore school uniform. My teachers didn't care what we wore. It had zero impact on our learning or our grades. I didn't have to walk through corridors in silence, we could sit where we wanted in class, we brought our own equipment and borrowed stuff from classmates if we forgot. Surprise.. no unruly behaviour in class. We were allowed to go to the toilet when needed. No stupid comments or threats. After all, we were responsible for our own learning. I didn't know anyone, who ever got a detention at my school. It just wasn't done. (I assume our teachers had better things to do than spend more time in a room with kids, who had annoyed them...) The teacher is there to teach. It's a bit like the horse and the water...
And no, I didn't go to some fancy private school. I attended a bog standard comp, albeit abroad.

It's like parenting. Pick your battles. Is whether a kid goes to the toilet in a lesson really an issue? It's only an issue if you make it one. They either need to go and then they are back after a few minutes,...or they use it to get out of the lesson. Then it would be more useful to find out why that's the case and how you can support them in not having to hide in a stinky loo.
The undone top button doesn't distract from the lesson. The teacher making an issue out of an undone top button or a wonky tie or an untucked shirt causes a distraction.
It doesn't stop a child from accessing a lesson when they don't have a pen and quickly ask a friend to borrow one. It stops them if the teacher makes an issue out of it, refuses to lend out equipment and spends ages just going on about it.

I have found children to be much more relaxed and increasingly more reliable about these things when the teacher doesn't "sweat the small stuff". There's no fun in sneaking to the loo when it's perfectly fine to do so. They're much quicker organising a pen and more reliable in returning it if it's just normal that equipment is available. (It's my stuff...they don't tend to throw or break my stuff,...because they do generally quite like me and I tend to have a positive relationship with my classes and my students' parents. I'm apparently, "really strict but funny'.)

I used to work in an office before becoming a teacher. People would wander off for fag breaks whenever they fancied, they'd wear what they wanted, have little chats in the corridor, go the toilet when they needed. I didn't need to bring my own pens. We had pens and nobody tried to make me stay longer for using one.

Tbf, the first few years would probably be bedlam, but after that it would make absolutely no difference.

I agree and add this: What else could the staff be doing with their time? Checking water bottles does nothing to facilitate learning.

I know the lack of staff and resources makes it impossible for many schools to meet their pupils' needs - that is understandable.

But what isn't really acceptable is failing to meet the children's needs and then punishing them for being unable to cope in an environment which is unsuitable for them.

reading threads like these make me glad we’re in Scotland and uniform guidelines generally not ridiculous (and aren’t actually enforceable- so in theory you can send you kid to school in pjs and they can’t be refused an education)

Teachers generally know all of those things but when they are working at capacity with skeleton staffing levels it is nigh on impossible to provide for one child per class let alone 10.

I taught for 5 years. I encouraged the children to take responsibility for their things. But if they forgot their pencil, I gave them a pencil.

I realise this is anecdotal, but I have seen accounts on here from parents whose children have been refused permission to take off their jumper/blazer during a heatwave, when the teachers were dressed in cool, comfortable clothing.

I spoke to the head of an ASD unit attached to a local high school who confirmed this was possible - proudly, I might add.

Imagine having children who were already not necessarily great at regulating themselves actually getting to the point they needed to ask to remove a blazer and being refused. By a twat in a short sleeved shirt.

The sooner these moronic uniform policies are seen for what they are the better.

Absolutely. Teachers do all those things. I buy lots of food and resources out of my own money. However, if you honestly believe it’s one pencil then you really need to go into a school and see what it’s like.

Do you think everyone has multiple schools to choose from, @Northernladdette?

@BeachLife2 - I realise this is anecdotal, but I have seen accounts on here from parents whose children have been refused permission to take off their jumper/blazer during a heatwave, when the teachers were dressed in cool, comfortable clothing.

I expect sensible rules and sensible sanctions.

So I absolutely do not support being sent home and detentions for uniform infractions (wrong socks??) but would expect instant exclusion for violence, abusive language, destructive behaviour, and I’d support the school if my child was a perpetrator.

My child has ASD and we have never accepted violence and offensive/inappropriate speech.

I have pushed back from very young on anything unpleasant. He’s far from perfect and I’m absolutely far from the school’s favourite parent but we have a positive and productive relationship because both parties have high expectations and enforce them whilst being cognisant of the issues he may have that need mitigation.

In a mainstream school it’s perfectly reasonable to expect children (including those with ND) to behave appropriately.

In my experience (which is not insignificant given I have two children with ASD both of whom have EHCPs) there is a large cohort of parents who are scared of their kids’ big reactions and have never put in the time to deal with it.

My friend is raising an absolute brat frankly because he has ASD and she doesn’t like upsetting him. He reminds me of my son when he was a similar age but I refused to allow that (for his own good) but we stamped that crap out early and he’s the better for it.

Secondary school is TOO LATE. These issues need to be dealt with at early childhood and primary level. By high school, the rot has mostly in, I'm afraid.

Do you think that all the strict rule enforcement is doing is teaching kids to be dependent and non-thinking?

For instance, my son's pe kit is shorts apart from certain activities when its joggers. There is no room for my son and his classmates to decide whether to wear shorts or joggers based on the weather etc. They are told what to do and have no ability to learn from wearing shorts in the snow. I know that's a very simplistic example but it goes wider than that.

My son's school is just too big which means rules are based on what is easiest for the teachers (which I really do understand) but many of them are not helping the children grow and learn life skills.