To be glad schools are finally hitting back

My sons school has loads of pernickety rules and regularly sends passive aggressive texts out then question why parent/school relationships are often poor and uptake for September is at a all time low.

Even with uniform kids know difference. Shoes, pencil case, bag - even the carrier bag they use for sports kit. Uniform is not a leveller.

Surely it’s primarily a failure of the parents.

In defence of uniforms - my son's uniform changed last year and parents were able to buy non branded t-shirts fir the first time. A boy went round the school pointing at kids without branded t-shirts trying to humiliate them for "being poor". My son (in his non branded t-shirt) couldn't care less but apparently a few kids were upset and the boy wouldnt leave them alone. The teachers were too busy fussing about the colour of socks to deal with the boy bullying.

However if there was no uniform at all, then incidents like that would increase when kids don't wear mainstream clothing or the right names.

I've worked in a high school for many years, its also a school in a deprived area that demands £000s for branded uniform, there is little parental choice as all the schools in the town are run by the same (or similar) academy trust.

The new head has gone on a power trip regarding uniforms, our school was the only one still forcing students to wear full uniform and blazers in the recent heat wave (rather than allowing PE kit - other schools within the same trust were allowing it so it seems it was purely the heads decision). We had multiple kids sent home for heat stroke that week and it took a facebook campaign (and the involvement of the local papers) for them to relent for the hottest day but the damage was done, attendance rates dropped off a cliff, essentially kids missed out on education because of a petty control freak jobsworth who was "preparing kids for the world of work" (I've previously held professional jobs, most just required smart/casual and those that required a uniform - we had air con which the school definitely does not and I could also use the loo if I needed and take off outer layers of clothing when I saw fit). I've lost a lot of respect for the school and its policies as first and foremost the job of any school is to give the kids an education. I feel the school infantilises the kids constantly which is not preparing them for the world of work at all.

All this is doing is making the kids stressed and hate school, they lack respect for the teachers who implement these batshit rules so misbehave so the school introduce more draconian policies. The toilets are locked except for lunch/break and usually have huge queues so kids kick off and are disruptive in lessons simply because they need the loo. Multiple platforms/apps for homework so kids miss stuff and get into trouble and terrible home-school communication.

Unfortunately they really don't, you can still tell the rich kids and the poor kids. Uniform hides nothing. Put a rich kid into Primark - they still wear it like a rich kid.

And yet, elsewhere in the world, schools turn out students who are accepted into top universities in their countries, despite the lack of uniform.

My DCs went to a public (aka state) high school in the US where there was no uniform, a very mixed intake, and disciplinary policies that were developed in committees comprised of various parent groups plus teacher reps plus members of the school board, and the district superintendent. So questions like why were African American kids getting a disproportionate number of detentions led to a professional study that showed this number could be greatly cut down. A question about detentions related to being tardy to class was answered with a card swipe system so all students who were late were flagged, not just some who were not popular with their teachers. All costing $$$$$ but also indicative of a sincere willingness to work together to solve problems and improve relationships.

Above all, money was spent on counseling staff to allow troubled students to discuss their difficulties before attendance and performance were affected.

In the UK, strict uniform policies take the place of collaboration between schools and community, and faith in the magic qualities of clothing takes the place of money spent by schools to deal with the real issues that are making schools fail.

It's the failute of schools to do anything effective about the behaviour that means these kids are flung on the dust heap before they've had a chance to change direction.

It depends if it is enforceable. The HT at my primary school tried to send a child home who came to school with a highly contagious illness. His parents didn’t bother to pick him up.

And yet, look at the graduates of Eton...

That's not how it works in places where there are no uniforms.

This is because kids do not place a premium on the forbidden fruit of non-uniform clothing when they wear their own choice of clothes every day of their lives.

I suspect British kids would get ovethit in about a week if they were allowed.

Uniforms are good imo. Otherwise you have the children from better off families going to school in their branded stuff, whilst others turn up in Primark. Children can be very judgemental of each other. Uniforms don’t differentiate and put children on a level with each other.

Quite. In addition happily ignoring all the very strict schools in special measures.

We have lots of schools round about us - private, academy, religious, single-sex. The kids at the academy are the smartest and have the most distinctive uniform. The private school kids are a mix - some quite scruffy but I'm told by my friend who has a child there that there are certain events that they are expected to look immaculate for. Apparently it's frowned on to have new kit - they all want second-hand sports kit with a bit of a "worn" look, which seems odd 🙄. The girls at the girls school look the most comfortable - sensitive knee-length skirts, socks in summer, and shirts and jumpers. No blazers or ties. I'm not sure the uniform really ties into the level of achievement at these schools.

I don't get the "children who are excluded are more likely to go to prison thing" surely it's the behaviour that causes the criminality not the exclusion?

You might be confused about route cause.

Predators (victims?) were excluded from school because of their characters. They didn't become predators because they were excluded.

Yes they do. Because the academy trusts are businesses, they don't really see the kids as people but more of a resource. I don't mean the teachers particularly, they just enforce the rules they're told to

So what would be the reason behind not being allowed to take a blazer off in summer until the head says you can?

The pro uniform brigade are notorious for confusion correlation with causation.

Which is of course nonsense, because it uniform caused good academic standards, there would be no countries without uniform which have good educational outcomes.

Really?

Best schools around have very strict uniform policy, what can I say. Clearly has a link

I hope they teach your children better critical thinking skills than you’re equipped with @randomlemonsheep

Well, no, it's not a coincidence that schools with engaged parents and children, who have usually been selected by academic ability perform better...
You could put them all in potato sacks and that wouldn't affect their academic outcomes. Might be a bit distracting and scratchy...

I currently work at a private school with very lax uniform... we still outperform state schools by miles. No wonder, our kids are bright and their parents will be on their backsides if they don't perform. (I've also worked at an inner city school in a really deprived area...so, I've been round a bit.)

I am privileged, I can easily afford to have kids with or without uniform, and I have chosen their school based on their results so they go in very decent school.

I see no interest in them wasting time in a circus with parents wasting everybody's time arguing that their little darling is special instead of concentrating on their actual education.

Best schools around have very strict uniform policy, what can I say. Clearly has a link

I might also add that another reason why so many children are disruptive is because what they learn is utterly pointless and boring, or inaccessible to them. We badly need to shake up the system in this country. A good 50% of children shouldn't be doing GCSEs and A Levels and should be working towards practical, apprenticeship-style qualifications that will lead them to fulfilling work. It's trying to force kids without the interest or intellectual capacity to do formal qualifications in subjects they don't like, don't understand and don't see the point in studying that causes so many issues in school. If the content of what students were learning matched their needs and interests, they wouldn't be disengaged or disruptive.

@EnidSpyton Isn't this what we had up until about 50 years ago with the Grammar /Secondary Modern set up?

I suppose the issue then was that the 11+ was so divisive and children's educational outcomes decided ridiculously early.

Maybe a shift back to something like this with a 13+ assessment would work.

@Sheeparemyfriends Oh Lord.

I remember girls coming in with fake nails that were so long that they couldn’t hold a pen.

We tried making laptops available. That worked for some.

Others tried to claim that they had the “right” to have a scribe.