To be glad schools are finally hitting back

Do you think all parents have the choice of several different schools, @Livelovebehappy?

Some areas do have several schools, but not all those schools will be a reasonable journey away for every child - and if you go outside your catchment school, the Local Authority does not have to pay for the travel. Some schools will be heavily oversubscribed, so if you are outside catchment, your chances of getting your child in there are slim to none.

C. Bemoan the silly , little rules , tell her if she gets in trouble for flaunting them that’s her problem, but fight on the big things or at least the ones I deem important enough.

In 10 years of schooling I only contacted the school 7 times. I’d say it’s a pretty decent balance.

You seem to believe parents have a choice...how lovely it must be in your bubble.

That also happens in schools with uniforms. Despite the uniform being the same , some vulnerable/deprived kids still stand out.Ill fitting uniform(too big or too small), stained or frayed or with holes in (even if clean), someone else’s name in them, faded/grey , clean but smelling if home cooking because the kitchen is the only room warm enough to dry the clothes , shoes with holes in them or soles coming apart etc. Or the tag on the skirt/top/trousers. Or because there’s so little to focus on, the shoes, or school bag or coat. There’s dozens of threads in the holidays from anxious parents asking what the in thing is for these things or affordable alternatives. Or the ridiculous OTT outfits on mufti days because they finally can and the distraction because it’s such a big thing . It’s fucking ridiculous. Uniforms do not solve this issue, I know, I work in a school. We just like to pretend they do.

Correlation or causation though?

Does an exclusion cause the child to become involved in crime?

Or is it likely that the child was already on the path to be involved in crime?

Don't get me wrong, exclusions definitely have the potential to lower a child's self-worth and entrench their feelings of "us against them", which might increase their chances of being involved in serious crime in the long run. But the exclusion isn't often going to be the main cause of the risk.

Changes need to be made to the school system. Schools excluding hundreds of pupils each term is not the answer. But ignoring all negative behaviour is also not the answer.

As someone says upthread, all parents have access to policies for each school. Surely you choose the school based on your preferences, and that of your child. If you think a school is too strict, then choose anothet. Dont send your child there, then complain about the rules..

A leveller, not necessarily in price, but visually. I also recall when mine were at school that many schools offered alternatives to buying new. I've witnessed bullying of children by other children just because they're wearing cheaper brands of clothing.

There are known kids around here and parents ask among themselves what 6th form is so and so going to. And are happy to learn when their child isn’t going there. Their parents think they are angels obviously.

They make learning difficult - one of the goid things about competitive 6th forms, if you don’t get the grades you don’t get in.

You can’t just say Scandinavian children don’t wear uniform and hence perform better at school. It’s a whole attitude from the parents and society.

We are in the UK and right now too many students and their parents think the world revolves around just them, they don’t care how their selfish behaviour effects others and think they can do what they like with consequences for them. And when there are consequences their first reaction is to still blame someone/something else. Entitled and lazy, a far cry from Scandinavian parenting.

Yep, sounds good. The argument people have against this has no value.

Some seem to imagine that allowing disruptive kids to stay in school will somehow help those children. Well, even if that was true (and it's generally not) they are disrupting everyone else's lives, stealing an education from kids who do want to learn, turning schools into a nightmare for those who follow rules, causing depression and misery amongst teachers.

Those children cannot be fixed by teachers. Being at home removes their ability to harass, torment and disrupt those kids who can be taught and make the environment unbearable for everyone else.

If those disruptive kids go on to commit crimes or wander the streets, that's not a gotcha - that's proving the point that they did not ever belong with average kids trying to get an education.

Schools don't exist for safe containment of future criminals or unfixable issues.

Whatever their challenges are it is well beyond the scope of teachers to try to fix whatever is going on with them

The experiment has been a total failure.

Send them home and deal with the consequences of that. A whole new paradigm is needed, and will emerge as a consequence of accepting reality.

There is no correlation between uniform and results. Unless you can provide such data/research, I call bs. Academy CEOs who spent their whole lives in banks wearing suits seem to think so, but there is no base of this in actual education.
I went to school in a country where uniforms are unheard of and did very well at university as did everyone I knew. Schools that struggled did so not because of what kids wore, Most of the world does not wear uniforms and do OK.

I am a teacher and I worked in non uniform schools and preferred them to places I had to stand in the corridor and police ties and tucked in shirts and waste time of lessons on this rather than you know, actually be able to teach. It will blow your mind that learning can happen no matter what kids wear and it has nothing to do with discipline, unless you are so narrow minded to believe that uniform is the same thing as discipline.

England isn’t any better, is it?

I went to school in a different country. The best and most prestigious high school in the city (and I’m talking kids going on full scholarships to Cambridge/Oxford or American universities or going into medicine/law/engineering here) was incredibly lax on uniform. We had a blazer (that lived on the back of our chairs most of the time) , a tie (that was “stylishly “ undone if anyone actually bothered to bring it ) , white or blue shirts (which a lot of the time became tshirts) and blue or black trousers/skirts (which became jeans). Tbf we subconsciously ended up wearing a “uniform” in a way of jeans, tshirt and trainers.No one cared about sock colours, shoes , pe kits etc. Behaviour wasn’t even a small fraction of what I see here. Don’t get me wrong, we were dicks, but there were (mostly self imposed) limits.

You guys desperately cling to this idea of strict and smart school uniforms because you don’t know any different AND because fixing the actual structural and systemic issues is too difficult and takes too much effort and money.

What if addressing the school doesn’t always work?

I met with the SENCO if Feb to discuss my daughters needs. Before entering the room, she hadn’t realised I was around the corner and was taking the piss out of my surname. She spent 45 mins discussing her and her families ski trips.

My daughter received a mentor this year, without any other support or LSP put in place.
Her behaviour escalated and was recently suspended.

The SENCO called me last week and explained my daughter’s needs were far more complex than they initially thought, as I had explained to them previously but was ignored.
She offered a variety of support for September, which I was very pleased about.
I explained that this should have happened in Feb but was unhappy that the meeting revolved around her families ski trip. I understand I probably should have kept my mouth shut, but I was hoping she would take on board that she shouldn’t ignore parents and that prevention is better than cure.
She shouted at me, said she is no longer offering any supper and she is also removing her mentor in sep as only children who receive 40k funding will get her help.

My daughter meets the threshold of an EHCP, except one, her grades are not below average.

The SENCO is also married to the Head teacher, so complaints go no where.

I do not make excuses for my daughter’s behaviour, I have a good relationship with 90% of the staff that work with her. I am always supportive and am fully aware teachers don’t go to work to be abused.
my daughter is not violent but struggles to engage and tends to not follow the lesson which can be disruptive to others. I do not make excuses for this. BUT she also has not received any support except for the mentor and they only support children who have EHCP’s.

@EnidSpyton Fantastic post! I agree with every word.

The problem is that sometimes the school introduces a rule later on, and then what. Homeschooling is not an option to everyone.
I am a teacher and found a lot of rules various schools I worked in ridiculous and not even supportive of teachers at all. Teachers leave because of a variety of reasons, enforcing crappy rules that do nothing but tick a box of some SLT who had it in their performance management is one of them.

If they want to buy M&S or Waitrose clothes, they’ll have to go to Edinburgh…No special measures here, though plenty of deprivation.

Yes, we have our share of behavioural problems, but my experience is that uniforms are beneficial, and Fife has never gone for silly uniform pricing.

I heard that an HT in the next county tried to bring in expensive purple blazers and the parents told here where to go. (Happened some years ago, in Kinross - a ‘nice’ area.)

They told her she could have black with purple braid.

In all seriousness, our depute used to suss out which supermarket had the best deals and tell the parents. Usually, it was Asda’s.

When I did supply after Covid, a particular school had allowed uniform to slip and it was reflected in behaviour and learning. I was also somewhat surprised at the attire of staff, but I’m an old fogey.

Our youngster’s academy is excellent
Our eldest’s academy was good
The two LA schools need huge improvement

So our experience is different regarding academies. And they both had no nonsense Heads, which seems to create a brilliant environment for those who want to learn. Like our two and many, many others.

The rules aren’t draconian, the teachers are lovely but they expect a basic level of behaviour from the students at the very least.

@HerNeighbourTotoro

Nope- there are a good number of secondaries in deprived areas that achieve great results.

What doesn't suit the anti-discipline crowd is that every one has strict rules, smart uniform and great behaviour.

That means that learning can take place rather than crowd control, and students can fulfil their potential.

Many private schools, international and in Europe, have uniforms as they too see the benefit in encouraging standards of dress…

@WhenYouSayNothingAtAll

I have relatives in Scotland and secondary education is very poor in many places.

The Scottish Government have had to develop a new 'behaviour strategy' as behaviour is so poor in the majority of schools.

All those schools must be in special measures , and the kids are throwing down on M&S/Waitrose vs ASDA/Tesco skirts.

According to some posters…

Yeah sure keep on telling yourself that, but forget that almost every single one of them is in a nice middle class area with kids whose parents can afford tutors. Coincidence right?
the best education systems in Europe are in Scandinavia, go and find schools there that have uniforms.

Stupidity on the part of the school.

In, Fife all secondary uniforms can be bought in the local supermarket, apart from ties and blazers. Ties are normally issued free of charge.

Blazers are low cost, because of deals with manufacturers, but schools will provide if aware of financial difficulties.