To be glad schools are finally hitting back

@frozendaisy

I also want children to be protected from bullying and abuse in school, but exclusion is a disaster for some of the most disadvantaged children in our communities, and there's got to be a better answer.

Also, you pay lip service to inclusion with your 'some of my best friend's children have special needs' comments, but your contempt for children and families who are difficult for schools to manage is still really obvious from your posts.

I think the concern with this is at what age you should really be deciding to send a child down one path or the other. The grammar school system is criticised for doing this, even though the subjects on offer in both pathways are largely the same.

I think we would massively benefit from having academic highschools and technical highschools like other countries. Kids that struggle in the standard setup (for whatever reason) would learn a trade (mechanics, engineering, electronics etc) or transferable jobs skills(pedagogy, economics, accounting, food tech) and get an education too.

Another article shows that that particular schools is building a SEN area this year and taking on 60 more DC with EHCPs

The new unit on the Leigh Academy Minster site is not part of the school. It is part of Snowfields Academy and pupils are Snowfields’ pupils. Same academy trust, different institution.

a parent can wave an EHCP around as much demanding it be provided in full but if a school can’t hire another TA for love or money then what exactly can they do?

Ultimately, it is the LA’s responsibility to ensure SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F of an EHCP is provided. It isn’t optional and the duty is non-delegable. As LAs have been shown time and again, lack of resources, staffing and funding are not lawful excuses for breach of section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014. This is why when faced with enforcement action, LAs usually act, and if they don’t, JR proceedings will force their hand. When enforcement action is pursued, lack of resources, staffing and funding are never actual barriers to the SEP being provided. LAs can fund provision at a higher rate, potentially substantially higher, but they won’t do so unless forced. LAs often only start taking parents seriously and increase their efforts to provide the SEP when they see parents know the law and will advocate and enforce DC’s rights.

A bit more realism on both sides for provision and attainment.
If a school says we just cannot right now provide all that is included on the EHCP, with documentation not without trying, they communicate with the parents on how to proceed. If a child needs a 1-1 TA they can’t recruit but could share a TA a third of the time say, the parents accept a 1/3 timetable, or full timetake 2/3 TA free. And the school accept the child will only be able to cover 1/3 of subjects?

Resuts tables are important to schools, perhaps they shouldn’t be, but perhaps by allowing some pupils to take say just English Maths Science, they could be parked as part of the league tables and they to only include pupils taking 7/8 or more GCSEs.

And what happens to those kids? Where do they go?

I get what you’re saying, I even agree on a particularly shit day at work. But what happens after?

Teachers have to put up from far too much shit from pupils. It needs to be easier to kick out problem kids to prevent the rotten few spoiling the whole barrel.

It honestly isn’t our teens have friends who are ASD/ADHD, they eat and debate and revise here and I always send a second pencil case in for one as he is usually underequipped (plus double money on cake sale days because he never brings any in). It takes a village to raise a child.

But they don’t tell females to get back to the kitchen or to fuck off, or go into the girl’s PE changing room and assault them, or take photos of other pupils on the loo, or bite or punch.

There are many kids being exposed to behaviour at school by other pupils that would be criminal in the adult world and that has to stop.

We have more understanding than some but after our eldest having been through 12 years of continues bad, aggressive behaviour from others and 10 years (and counting) with the youngster - yes sympathy wears thin. We have had to tutor ours through missed lessons, which is why their secondary schools were informed choices. Our children only have one shot at secondary education as well, and we are just as involed and passionate about our children as other’s are about theirs. Have our children ever disrespected a teacher or any member if school staff or visitors? No. Have they ever disrupted a lesson? No. Have they ever hurt, isolated or verbally bullied another child? No. They deserve an education as well you know.

You usually have to behave reasonably well to pass in the first place. In my country you only need to fail one subject to be kept back, but generally you're given a chance over the summer to prove you have learnt enough so its not that low.
One boy in DD's school is doing 8th grade for the 3rd time because of persistent absence which is behavioural really.

In my opinion (and experience) this is utter bollocks though. It's a bonkers bit of nonsense psychology and it's not how kids (or adults) actually work. Rebelling over little things doesn't stop anyone from rebelling over big things. Having obviously petty rules just makes even the good kids have less goodwill and less of a positive attitude towards school and towards the teachers having to enforce the rules.

Personally I think a "house" system in schools would be far better than pupils being silo'd in forms and year groups. It would create a sense of "belonging". Not suggesting a free for all of massive aged differences in lessons etc., but mixing different ages in some areas, like sports, common rooms, etc could really improve things if done properly, to give the younger pupils more options for pastoral support, advice, etc., rather than having to rely only on teachers and other staff.

I saw/experienced the benefits of school clubs & societies back in the day, when they were more common, when pupils spanning several different age groups get together, do things together, etc. To some extent, we still have that with things like school plays that are often open to the "whole school" or choirs/orchestras, etc. Often you could really see the different age groups gelling and the younger ones becoming more mature by being around the older ones.

Yes, many pupils can experience the same at home with broader families, or in out of school activities, but lots don't have big families and may not do much outside school, and may not be musically inclined so not involved in drama and similar performances.

Another article shows that that particular schools is building a SEN area this year and taking on 60 more DC with EHCPs so I would image that headteacher cares about the education of SEN pupils and likely follows their EHCPs.

You’re right it shouldn’t be. There should be a middle ground. Out of curiosity, what do you think would actually work and have the best outcome for the most people/society?

@Sendcrisis2025

Suspensions are down by three quarters, but the new head has been clear he will not allow a few students to continue to disrupt the life chances of other students.

I would suggest the previous environment which included gangs roaming the corridors and students and staff being assaulted was not great for most SEN students.

@Badbadbunny

The headteacher would disagree. He says uniform has made a huge difference.

Other articles mention rebuilding trust with pupils and parents and the school being split into four separate groups so children know who to go to when they need support. I'd imagine that is the real change here, consistency so teachers support children quickly when they need it.

Stopping the pupils who will go on to generate income of the future should not be the option.

Clearly those children and families need services and input, but forcing them into classroom where not only does the child not achieve anything it stops others as well should not be continually flogged until an amazing teacher leaves the profession.

There is a shift from the pupils right now, well there seems to be, it’s subtle, but it’s there. The disruptive pupils get isolated more and more as they get older because other pupils think they are dicks for fucking up another lesson, or challenge their viewpoints in the class. So they aren’t getting education and worse social isolation. I know I know their parents will probably be demanding the school gives them friends as well but you can’t and shouldn’t make another 14 year old be friends with someone they dislike.

As kids get older they aren’t bothered or scared about calling out the disruptive ones. Why should they be it’s the truth.

The reason it would have been transformed is by kicking out all of the kids who can't manage it.

Yes. Many of our local schools operate a 3 strike policy for things as meaningless as pens. 1st strike detention, 2nd strike internal isolation, 3rd strike suspension.

I had a teen on my caseload who was recognised as a young carer and doing a lot of care for their two younger siblings. Shoes broke, got hold of a spare pair until they could afford regulation shoes. Suspended as the temp ones weren't regulation.

As much as behaviour is a major problem, schools are trying to tackle it by being zero policy on the tiny things. All that is doing is making punishments meaningless as they are so disproportionate for the minor things. It is making children hate schools. It isn't working. Anyone who works within a LA or IAS service could tell you how bonkers so many of the suspensions are.

Behaviour and punctuality - yes, but I'd strongly suggest that the uniform element was marginal at best.

I've been saying this on MN for years! We really do need to stop schools and teaching being dictated according to age and the automatic moving up year by year whether the pupil is ready or not, whether academically or behaviourally.

Obviously not a permanent "holding back" year after year, but maybe just an automatic right for a one year hold back, with maybe a second time for exceptional circumstances.

It's a good time to do it now with the forecast reducing numbers in schools over the next few years.

If we can't do that, then there needs to be more of "mixing it up" in the same year, for pupils who aren't progressing, either due to being around "bad influences" or other reasons. I.e. form swapping, class swapping, etc. Do it at the first signs of problems such as disruption, bullying, etc., before the issues get too serious and formal disciplines/suspensions etc are needed.

If a pupil starts secondary in a "bad" environment of a form, i.e. being bullied, too many disruptive pupils around them, they're basically stuck there for 5 years and that can kill their education stone dead. However, if it was easier to shake up a bit, swap forms, etc., nip it in the bud, and the kids who want to learn and grow have a better chance.

Interestingly, I've just read an article about how the UK's worst school has been transformed.

It was inadequate for over a decade and teachers were on strike due to dangerous behaviour. Behaviour was "uncontrolled" and "dangerous" with lessons being "regularly disrupted".

Pupils did "not feel safe at school because of the very poor behaviour".

It has now been transformed by a new regime, focusing on strict uniform, behaviour and punctuality.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sheerness/news/i-m-proud-to-go-here-now-the-remarkable-turnaround-of-one-327577/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR4fYJv14K72PZa17m465zwdeDLtj5q7uwmExZYpCGi7d8kHXp93NNi90-r7ggaempy3-LbdbUpjsaTNAeNvk2w#

Yes and no. The issue is, what do we do with these kids? Go back to the concept of “uneducables” ? Keep them in their chaotic, toxic, abusive, racist homes? How will society benefits from having a bunch of teens with no positive role models, no education, no prospects, unemployable , allowed to roam free with nowhere to go and nothing to do? We need to think long term here , and more people turning to crime, going to prison, needing to be on benefits, having babies (which get stuck in the same cycle) won’t benefit anyone.

Really? Just forgetting a pen once (or 10 times) and nothing else?

You seem to be mixing up so many issues there and lumping them into one. Many SEN children are not trans. Many children from different religions do not have SEN. Children do not get an EHCP because they are sexist. If an EHCP isn't covering the needs of the DC, you call an emergency meeting with the local council to review it. Any decent teacher would be aware of that process. Sadly many don't care to learn the legal process involved in their job and would rather illegally excluded a child. That is the schools failure.