To be glad schools are finally hitting back

Of course, there are no social consequences from the things I like.

And when they do it every day?

I think a lot of the rule thing is about making teenagers, who are by nature Rebellious and Determined to be Different, realise that in some situations, ie school and work, it is necessary to conform, and do as you are told! It is much, much easier to teach in a quiet, disciplined environment, and most pupils prefer it.

This. Thirty children in a class; order and some form of discipline has to be instilled is learning is to take place. I know it’s not the fun and popular thing to say, but it’s true.

As other posters have said, the issue is whether the rules are reasonable and sensible, and the sanctions are proportionate, @Teachingquestion.

I would rather a school concentrated on the issues that can really impact the children's learning, rather than petty rules. So, for example, I'd rather that the uniform rules had some flexibility in them, but the children were taught to behave in class, and disruptive behaviour was firmly dealt with.

My dses went to a secondary school that had, in my opinion, a very sensible uniform policy - black trousers or skirts, white shirts, school tie, and a choice of black zip up sweatshirt/cardigan/v-neck jumper - the only stipulation was that the knot of the tie had to be visible - so a zipped up sweatshirt had to have the zip lowered to show the knot of the tie. PE kit was shorts and t-shirts/track suit for winter - the only rule was no football colours/strips.

We had moved to the area, and ds1 and ds2 had been in selective grammar schools with very strict uniform policies - that cost the parents an absolute fortune, so we were very happy with the new school's policies.

The reason that I have seen given for strict uniform rules is that it creates high standards that help to improve general behaviour - if the kids have pride in their appearance, they're likely to behave better - but in my experience, the behaviour at the schools with the strict policies, and at the school with the more flexible policy were pretty similar. The two boys who moved from the strict grammar schools carried on achieving academically at the same level they'd been at in their previous schools, and ds3, who did all of his secondary education at the more flexible school, also did really well academically.

Oh great another ‘mysterious’ click bait opening post where the OP says something and then disappears until the appropriate number of baffled responses appear.

I agree. But they can't go either on criminalising everyone for minor things then not actually dealing with bullying, sexual assault and all the serious stuff that goes on.

I can’t wait for the lower birth rate to filter through to secondary level as there will be an excess of school places where I live. At the moment parents can’t vote with their feet (unless they can afford to go private). Virtually all the secondary schools in my city have been monopolised by a very strict academy trust. However, all of the other secondaries with sensible rules are oversubscribed with waiting lists…

I think schools should be able to expel violent and dusruptive students, but not that the kids end up at home all day. They need to be in employment, education or training.

Many could benefit from being in pupil referral units, or special schools, with low staff student ratios and support workers so that the kids get support to turn things around before they end up in prison. It is more expensive in the short term, so my concern is that these kids wouldn't get the support they need.

But schools can't continue the way they are, with disruptive or violent kids stopping others from learning, and making the school feel unsafe.

Hear hear. That's what DDs' primary school was like. Then DD2 went to secondary school and it was like prison every day.

I ve voted YANBU, untill I see the rules.

I think most children respond well to a caring, structured environment where they are nurtured and supported to meet reasonable demands and clear expectations. Where they are accepted as individuals and humans beings with their own quirks that might make complying with certain requirements harder for them than other children, but they have confidence that they will be supported and encouraged to do so. Where they know that their comfort and wellbeing are being prioritised by the staff in charge of them. Where sanctions for poor behaviour are clear, proportionate and implemented with kindness and with the clear message that it is possible for the child to make better choices and that help is available if they are struggling and they ask for it.

If your school supports its pupils in this way, OP, then fair play to them for taking a clear line on rule infractions.

When I was at school kids forgot equipment all the time and we just shared or schools had spare, it was never a big issue. What wastes a load of time is making it an issue - teachers checking whether everyone has the equipment and then dishing out punishments to those who didn't. Then all the kids who come in all enthusiastic want to learn and do well are made to feel really anxious that they might forget something next time and be similarly punished. And are not learning because half the lesson was taken up with checking and punishment and the disruption that caused. Then the rest of the time they are sat there not listening as they are thinking about being punished next time.

Then the teacher asks them a question and they can't answer because they were distracted and not listening. Then they get punished for getting it wrong or not paying attention.

In their next lesson they find another child has stolen their pen as they didn't want to get detention. So they get detention, other kids laugh at them for it. On the way to the lesson after that, even more distracted they get told off for walking on the wrong side of the corridor, and for looking at their phone as they forgot what lesson they have next.

The next day they can't be moved from bed as they haven't slept as they were awake all night worrying about the same cycle happening at school tomorrow, they hide under the covers and don't want to go in.

Just stop doing this shit to kids. It's fucking ridiculous and such a waste of time and potential.

Biggest risk factor for kids is being excluded from school? Can you link to the study on this please?

I suspect a lot of DC think rules made in their own home are pretty stupid too, yet they're expected to adhere to them.

Or is that different.

Our local non uniform is slowly creeping a uniform in. It’s gone from logo Pe top and business wear to logo jumper and tie coming soon.

Seems like a new manager up above comes in and the only thing they can ever think to do is mess around with uniforms.

White shirt black trousers should be easy enough.

That's a bit tricky if there are no "non-uniform" schools around, isn't it?

My DS's school doesn't have a uniform. No issues with behaviour at his school, even though the kids wear what they want.

It depends what the rules are for? Are they to benefit the children’s or teachers in some way or just rules for the sake of rules? My very well behaved autistic son wouldn’t cope at the local secondary as he would be in perpeptual fear of breaking a rule and being punished as there are hundreds of rules which are strictly enforced. He also has a slow verbal processing speed so would be likely to be punished for not responding quick enough.

The school is obsessed with uniform rules and if pupils have two green pens or not, bullying goes unchecked and kids are taking drugs in the toilets!

I of course think certain rules are so important.

Having a tucked in shirt or wearing a blazer at all times not so much.

Are you talking about mobile phones op?

Rattysparklebum There was a School featured last night on South Today news.Appears to have a drop in attendance . Could this have anything to do with the fact children are not allowed to laugh in the corridors, and the playground? Quite honestly they would be better off in prison! WTF? I am heartily relieved that I dont presently have any children in the system. And this is not a school in our area.My own DD struggled massively and had to be HE.She is like many others with LD and these are never properly addressed .

literally the attitude and the reasoning of the bullies and disruptive elements.

My kids go to schools with normal rules, and a 0 tolerance for bullying. My kids are kept safe, it's exactly what I want. Doesn't hurt they also do the learning they go to school for!

If you don't like the uniform, go to a school where there isn't one

or campaign and gather support from other parents to change it.

Throwing a tantrum or thinking rules don't apply to you is such a waste of everybody's time. If schools put kids in detention, parents complain anyway.

I think schools are implementing meaningless rules because they have zero control over what actually matters - bullying, aggressive & rude behavior, disruption in the classrooms.

So no, i dont give a fuck about rules that have zero impact or meaning.

not putting up with behaviour that disrupt other kids education at best, or worst allow them to bully their way around

The classes are already too full, not even time and resources, why should it be acceptable to disrupt 30 people because you can't be bothered to have a pencil.

Of course it's about time.