Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be glad schools are finally hitting back

463 replies

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 12:05

Over the last couple of days I've seen more stories about schools introducing new rules and sending students home who won't comply.
I'm in a really tricky school about to do the same (when we start back) and the staff are so relieved. Teachers on here : are you glad to see it?

OP posts:
Witchtower · 22/07/2025 17:18

Snoozebuttonplease · 22/07/2025 13:16

I think schools should be able to expel violent and dusruptive students, but not that the kids end up at home all day. They need to be in employment, education or training.

Many could benefit from being in pupil referral units, or special schools, with low staff student ratios and support workers so that the kids get support to turn things around before they end up in prison. It is more expensive in the short term, so my concern is that these kids wouldn't get the support they need.

But schools can't continue the way they are, with disruptive or violent kids stopping others from learning, and making the school feel unsafe.

I work in PRU two days a week. Years 7-8 still have a chance to turn everything around and are usually reintegrated back into school, sadly some are groomed by the older ones.
Years 9-11 are already involved in gangs, county lines, criminal behaviour etc, it is very unlikely they are willing to leave that path.

Special schools are extremely difficult to get into and have ridiculously long waiting lists.

FrenchFancie · 22/07/2025 17:17

One of the local senior schools has an issue with skirt length - the girls roll them up so short it’s unreal - I’ve certainly seen arse cheeks when driving past some of them, and yes, that’s a safeguarding concern when younger teenagers don’t know or appreciate the dangers that exist. I wish the world was different, and they could wear whatever, but there you go.

i’ve been into a couple of senior schools recently and was surprised by the huge difference in culture and behaviour. School A was very hot on behaviour, not tolerating even minor slip
ups. This lead to an atmosphere of calm in the classroom and learning happened.

School B was more relaxed, but some of the kids went unchallenged - so for example a year 7 walked in late to a science lesson, yelled ‘I fucking hate science’ put his head down on the desk and refused to work. The teacher did nothing and when I asked her after the lesson, she told me that student had form for smashing up her lab and she didn’t have any more budget to replace broken things, so she just ignores him.

i can’t help but think that school As approach is better for the majority of kids, and the teachers.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 22/07/2025 17:17

Shatteredallthetimelately · 22/07/2025 16:50

You make your child wear their blazer at home...
Wow.

That is not what @FloofyBird was saying, @Shatteredallthetimelately!

She said, ”Well i imagine if i told my child they couldn't take their blazer off until I said so when it's hot outside or I grounded them for hours because they forgot to bring a pencil down to do their homework or I made them sit in a room for hours and hours because they had their shirt untucked some (school) would flag it a a safeguarding concern.” - the key word here being imagine.

She is saying that IF she enforced some of the stricter school rules at home, it would be a safeguarding concern.

MrsSunshine2b · 22/07/2025 17:07

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:34

Sorry to post then go MIA. Tough day here.
To clarify:
We have now insisted on a zero tolerance to violence and racist language (we had got into a bad habit of needing 'evidence' to the point where teachers were asking for body cam. Students using racist slurs, to which parents said staff or students were mistaken. As there was no cctv, they just kind of buckled to the parents.
We have a school improvement partner now, some uniform rules are changing like length of skirts . This has been necessary due to public complaints about indecency

I think that's absolutely fair. If schools cannot trust teaching staff to give a truthful account of what they witness or to be able to assess what has happened on a balance of probabilities then there are big problems with their recruitment practises!

SapphireSeptember · 22/07/2025 17:04

SanctusInDistress · 22/07/2025 14:18

These matter. Being able to follow these ‘small’ rules develops the skills and discipline needed to follow these ‘rules’ to survive the real workplace. Young people who are unable to develop these skills will struggle later on and complain about ‘mental health. Nonsense.

But I didn't have such rules in place when I was at school. We could dye our hair, wear makeup, whatever socks we liked, we weren't supposed to wear jewellery but none of the teachers really cared if we did, and somehow I managed to get by in the workplace. I've worked in a café and then a DIY/tradie retailer/warehouse, both places where wearing the correct PPE is important, I couldn't wear nail polish or jewellery in the café and needed to tie my hair up as well.

Witchtower · 22/07/2025 17:00

It is one of the reasons I left education.
Consequences are essential and positive behaviour strategies are just as important.
Sadly it just seems to be implemented incorrectly with some of the most vulnerable being affected.
Everyone seems to implement it how they choose with their own ‘rules,’ and so many teachers seem to be on power trips.
Maybe let’s fix the system teachers are required to work in rather than allowing these stressful conditions and lack of funding to effect the most vulnerable.

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:58

With regards to the skirts, we've had several public complaints , some reporting they can see sanitary towels etc as the skirts are so short.
It's a safeguarding risk at this point tbh

OP posts:
Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:57

We are on the brink of an incredibly likely to be catastrophic ofsted.
Behaviour was good until Covid. We've struggled to get them back on track. We are In a difficult geographical area with its own challenges.
We won't say no evidence needed but we are at the point where it's tricky for staff . A colleague was told by a year 10 boy that he would rpe her and she was a n btch"
Parents insisted he said it all apart from the racist bit. He had a morning in isolation but was back in the afternoon and not removed from her lessons. Staff nearly walked out over this one. There have been other incidents hence staff wanting bodycam

OP posts:
CatHairEveryWhereNow · 22/07/2025 16:53

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:34

Sorry to post then go MIA. Tough day here.
To clarify:
We have now insisted on a zero tolerance to violence and racist language (we had got into a bad habit of needing 'evidence' to the point where teachers were asking for body cam. Students using racist slurs, to which parents said staff or students were mistaken. As there was no cctv, they just kind of buckled to the parents.
We have a school improvement partner now, some uniform rules are changing like length of skirts . This has been necessary due to public complaints about indecency

TBH I'd welcome that.

Though DD2 friendship group reported racial slurs after school ran a zero tolerance PR thing - it was supposed to be anonymous - they told the kids who were doing it who accused them resulting in friendship blow up and bullying claims right before exams - and what wasn't dealt with in the end was the racist language. DD2 group learnt not to trust the school PR.

Skirts will be a mine field though - a huge time suck but do get it I used to see so many teen nickers walking my own kids into their then primary school. DD1 like a long skirt got shouted at in a corridor full of belts mascarading as skirts beause it rode up to her knee going up stairs Hmm. DD2 went for trousers.

Becs51 · 22/07/2025 16:51

parakeet · 22/07/2025 15:51

There is some good news for this mum. Children don't need to drink water/squash constantly all day to avoid getting dehydrated. They can just drink before school, lunch time, and at 4.00pm and they'll be fine (unless it's exceptionally hot weather). So perhaps either the daughter is exaggerating about getting dehydrated or the mum really is one of those awkward parents.

What the actual! Firstly, how does she drink at lunchtime when they’ve taken away her drink? Secondly that is a reasonable adjustment for a disabled child. We should be teaching equity in schools not equality. It’s a basic human right to have access to a drink for goodness sake and if she can’t tolerate water because of her autism then that is a reasonable adjustment that absolutely should not be questioned. Utterly ridiculous.

DiggingHoles · 22/07/2025 16:51

I am with you on the racist language and the violence.

However, you can't force girls to wear skirts in school and then complain about "indecency". It's sexist, impracticable and uncomfortable to wear skirts. Let them wear what the boys wear.

Shatteredallthetimelately · 22/07/2025 16:50

FloofyBird · 22/07/2025 16:48

Well i imagine if i told my child they couldn't take their blazer off until I said so when it's hot outside or I grounded them for hours because they forgot to bring a pencil down to do their homework or I made them sit in a room for hours and hours because they had their shirt untucked some (school) would flag it a a safeguarding concern.

Edited

You make your child wear their blazer at home...
Wow.

KoiTetra · 22/07/2025 16:49

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:34

Sorry to post then go MIA. Tough day here.
To clarify:
We have now insisted on a zero tolerance to violence and racist language (we had got into a bad habit of needing 'evidence' to the point where teachers were asking for body cam. Students using racist slurs, to which parents said staff or students were mistaken. As there was no cctv, they just kind of buckled to the parents.
We have a school improvement partner now, some uniform rules are changing like length of skirts . This has been necessary due to public complaints about indecency

So you are now saying that the school will assume all reports of racist language are genuine?

Seems a very dangerous precedent to me, kids are hardly known for being reasonable and respectful at all times, they aren't known for going through hormone changes and emotional instability.

It sounds totally out of the realms of possibility that kids would make up accusations knowing it would get someone they had a grudge/argument/minor disagreement that day with in very serious trouble.

(that was very heavy with sarcasm)

FloofyBird · 22/07/2025 16:48

Shatteredallthetimelately · 22/07/2025 13:12

I suspect a lot of DC think rules made in their own home are pretty stupid too, yet they're expected to adhere to them.

Or is that different.

Edited

Well i imagine if i told my child they couldn't take their blazer off until I said so when it's hot outside or I grounded them for hours because they forgot to bring a pencil down to do their homework or I made them sit in a room for hours and hours because they had their shirt untucked some (school) would flag it a a safeguarding concern.

Lolalaboucheridesagain · 22/07/2025 16:46

My friend (an excellent and really passionate English teacher) has just left the profession because she was experiencing persistent sexual harassment (inappropriate comments and a groped bum more than once) and the schools (plural!) did absolutely nothing about it.
My boy starts high school in a year and is going to a school who brought a new, much stricter behaviour policy in last year. I welcome it.

Superhansrantowindsor · 22/07/2025 16:46

Lacking equipment is a massive PITA. it wastes so much time making sure everyone has what they need, counting it out and trying to get it all back at the end. It wastes money too as sometimes you lend out so much equipment there is always stuff that doesn’t get handed back.

The toilet issue is weird. I’ve taught over 20 years. When kids needed the loo, they’d ask and I would let them go. Something happened about five years ago where I think there were some stories in the press about schools not letting kids go and it has become a massive issue when it never used to be. Our school policy is if they ask, they can go. I will be teaching the lesson after break and I guarantee one after another will ask to go until about 15 have asked to be excused. It never used to be like this. As a menopausal woman with a bladder like an acorn, it irritates me when people get funny about toilet visits as I have to wait until break and can’t just walk out. Obviously some kids have a medical need but most don’t but they are out every lesson.

MrsSunshine2b · 22/07/2025 16:44

randomlemonsheep · 22/07/2025 16:03

in most jobs, if you are scatty, forget what you are supposed to take, don't submit work on time, you get sacked. If you turn up at an interview in an inappropriate outfit, you won't get the job. If you dress inappropriately for the environment you are in, first rules have to be added to handbook, then you also get the door.

That's what you are spectacularly missing.

Yes, and if you can't read, you'll have a tough time getting a job as well, but if a child struggles to learn to read, we don't punish them. We spend extra time helping them learn to read.

And actually, employers are obliged to make reasonable adjustments for staff with disabilities or ND. For example, if you work from home, you can't forget equipment. If you have an assigned desk and all your equipment stays on that desk, you are less likely to lose it. If you struggle to remember deadlines, your manager might be obliged to provide you with reminders. It's a legal duty.

Whatafustercluck · 22/07/2025 16:41

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:34

Sorry to post then go MIA. Tough day here.
To clarify:
We have now insisted on a zero tolerance to violence and racist language (we had got into a bad habit of needing 'evidence' to the point where teachers were asking for body cam. Students using racist slurs, to which parents said staff or students were mistaken. As there was no cctv, they just kind of buckled to the parents.
We have a school improvement partner now, some uniform rules are changing like length of skirts . This has been necessary due to public complaints about indecency

Cross posted, thanks for the clarification.

However, why is zero tolerance to violence and racism a new thing? Or do you mean that you're no longer required to provide evidence? If it's the latter, it's a slippery slope. Of course you need evidence of wrong doing, otherwise surely it's one person's word against another. And I don't doubt that malicious accusations are made. I'm still not much clearer on what you mean.

I don't think the answer to problems regarding uniform rules is more uniform rules, either.

Whereishenow · 22/07/2025 16:39

EnidSpyton · 22/07/2025 16:31

As an experienced teacher, I haven't taught in the state system for years because I can't bear being put in a position where I am forced to enforce petty rules that are all about control and nothing to do with education. Schools should not be prisons where children's movements and freedoms are restricted.

Children do not need to wear a uniform to be 'ready to learn.' I teach in a school with no uniform rules whatsoever - the kids can wear whatever they like. We trust them to make sensible and appropriate choices and guess what - they do.

If children forget equipment or books - then we just lend/give them what they need and don't make a big deal out of it. We all forget things sometimes. Why should we punish them for asking them to have too much on their plates? Kids as young as 11 are expected to rush around school from lesson to lesson, going to different classrooms each time, and to different subjects with different equipment requirements. Would an adult remember every little thing each of those 6 teachers had asked them to do/bring to their lesson that day? Probably not. It's normal that they might forget something sometimes and the right response is kindness and understanding rather than shame and punishment.

If children are late, we find out why and deal with the root cause. Very rarely is it children being wilfully disruptive. Most of the time there are issues going on at home or school that need intervention and the lateness is a symptom of something much deeper. Punishing a child for finding it difficult to come to school is nothing but counterproductive.

No child should ever be told no when they ask to use the toilet. That is barbaric.

A lot of the time in these draconian academy schools, children are disruptive because they don't see the point in what they're learning and they have so little control/autonomy over their day-to-day lives. They have to sit in rows and listen and make notes with no choices and no opportunity to move around or chat. If their classrooms were creative, collaborative environments where they could move freely, work on learning projects that they had agency over and understood the purpose of, and had warm and engaging relationships with their teachers, who they saw as allies rather then enemies, then the classroom environment doesn't become a space of combat but one of community, and then you don't need rules to keep kids in line.

I might also add that another reason why so many children are disruptive is because what they learn is utterly pointless and boring, or inaccessible to them. We badly need to shake up the system in this country. A good 50% of children shouldn't be doing GCSEs and A Levels and should be working towards practical, apprenticeship-style qualifications that will lead them to fulfilling work. It's trying to force kids without the interest or intellectual capacity to do formal qualifications in subjects they don't like, don't understand and don't see the point in studying that causes so many issues in school. If the content of what students were learning matched their needs and interests, they wouldn't be disengaged or disruptive.

So many schools have got it so wrong. And unfortunately the majority of communities in which these draconian schools exist are ones with the highest levels of disadvantage, and their approach merely exacerbates existing societal issues in those communities rather than doing anything to improve or enrich those children's lives or future opportunities.

You sound sensible and lovely and I really wish all education professionals shared your outlook.
It's amazing how differently kids are treated in private school. No self respecting parent is going to want to pay to send their kids to an abusive prison style environment.

Superhansrantowindsor · 22/07/2025 16:38

I work in a very large high school. The vast majority of kids turn up on time, equipped and ready to learn. They behave well and are respectful. Most kids have less than 10 behaviour marks for the whole year. The trouble makers are persistent. Some come from a background where you make allowances and have sympathy for their inability to follow rules but too many break the rules and their parents back them up every single time. I genuinely think the majority of parents of naughty kids think it’s normal and all kids get detentions all the time. They really don’t.

AngelsWithSilverWings · 22/07/2025 16:36

I'm another who hates these strict punishments and rules.

My DD is a rule follower and always had correct uniform. Unfortunately she was so stressed and anxious from seeing others pulled out in front of class and punished that she developed OCD about getting ready for school each evening.

By the time she had eaten and done homework and sorted and re sorted her school bag and pencil case countless times and checked and checked she had clean blouse ( she always did but obsessed about it) she wasn't getting to bed until midnight. It was exhausting.

She also has IBD which means she was access to the disabled toilets but the teachers kept forgetting and would shout at her through the door and tell her off for being in the loo during lesson time.

We had to remove her from that school and transfer her to private for the sake of her mental health.

One thing I will always remember is her not wanting to eat in case she got fatter and her school trousers got tighter. The teachers used to pull girls up in front of class and do a pinch test to check trousers were not skinny fit.

My DD was tiny due to her illness and we had to buy skinny fit just to make them look like normal fit otherwise she would have all the material bagging up around her waist.

Oh and don't dare grow taller during term time as the minute those trousers show a bit of ankle it's isolation for you!

I wish I could go back in time and shout at the head teacher for all the long term damage they did to my DD's mental health during her short time there.

Whatafustercluck · 22/07/2025 16:34

Which new rules aren't they complying with? There's no context.

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 16:34

Sorry to post then go MIA. Tough day here.
To clarify:
We have now insisted on a zero tolerance to violence and racist language (we had got into a bad habit of needing 'evidence' to the point where teachers were asking for body cam. Students using racist slurs, to which parents said staff or students were mistaken. As there was no cctv, they just kind of buckled to the parents.
We have a school improvement partner now, some uniform rules are changing like length of skirts . This has been necessary due to public complaints about indecency

OP posts:
Whereishenow · 22/07/2025 16:33

PreciousTatas · 22/07/2025 16:25

Some of the uniform requirements are absolutely ridiculous. And I won't support a detention for them, not when absolute violent shits can abuse other children and get treated with kid gloves.

During the last heatwave dd had to take her blazer in to school.

She didn't have to wear it. But she had to take it in. And the teachers actually wasted time checking children had brought their blazers in to school.

In a heatwave.

Fucking mental academies.

It's actually really sad that we're treating kids like this. I really don't understand the mentality of those who support it - I don't mean teachers here. I understand that most of them think it's bollocks as well but HAVE to enforce the stupid rules because the trust has decided it's the hill to die on - but the people who say things like "it's setting them up for the world of work" or it's "teaching them resilience". It isn't. It's teaching them they may as well do something that is ACTUALLY bad since they'll get punished either way. It's also breeding anxiety and a hatred of school in otherwise good kids. I've seen kids who love learning and are super keen in primary go up to secondary and just lose all motivation.
I just don't get why we treat them all like criminals, just in case.

MyDeftDuck · 22/07/2025 16:33

Teachingquestion · 22/07/2025 12:05

Over the last couple of days I've seen more stories about schools introducing new rules and sending students home who won't comply.
I'm in a really tricky school about to do the same (when we start back) and the staff are so relieved. Teachers on here : are you glad to see it?

Are these new rules of the ridiculous variety? ….. For example…….students MUST wear a blazer when it’s 30deg+ ?!?! Have some of these teachers, Heads, governors never heard of heat stroke?!?! All brains and no common sense springs to mind…….rant over!