To be glad schools are finally hitting back

I’m very old fashioned, traditional type of person but even I can see that blazers and ties for children are ridiculously outdated. Asking for permission to remove a blazer is nonsense and I tell all my classes at the start of the year that if they wish to remove their blazer during my lesson, just do it.

This thread has reminded me of a story my dad told, back in the 80s.

My dad was a teacher, and his school had a rule that there couldn’t be any writing on students’ tops/shirts. He was in the corridor, and saw the Head call over a Sixth form girl, to look at her shirt, which had a small label type motif on it. He literally had to get way too close, and peer through his glasses, to see that the label said “If you can read this, you are TOO CLOSE!!”

It’d be great if they got rid of the tailored trousers, blazer and tie rule at every school for every kid. Comfortable trousers of one colour is fine. It’s mad students are doing drama, food tech, chemistry, DT etc in smart office gear.

That's a massive overreach by the school imo.

You don't encourage parents to be supportive of the core mission of the school by antagonizing them and their children with petty power plays like that. All you achieve is sending the message that you don't trust parents to make decisions for their own children.

Empowerment of stakeholders is key in drawing all on board in hopes of improving the school environment and improving educational outcomes.

Disempowerment and disrespect of a key group will have the opposite effect.

And how many other families care at all?
How many other families help anyone outside their bubble?

So fine decide all I, we in the household, have is contempt. Because I haven’t just given my old digital DSLR to a teen friend because he wants to be a photographer, we don’t hear answeres to Eng Lang (non fiction) papers from unacademic teens friends lifted from conversations around the kitchen table. If our time, money, influence were matched by others, or in particular our teens who are strong, loving, patient and forgiving to their peers school society might be a slightly better place.

There are just nasty kids out there with dreadful parents or just selfish parents, we know our children will grow with their peers they don’t live in a vacuum, we are more than happy to make them, and us, and the teens we come across, part of our outer lives and contribute in any way we can or are permitted.

But as everyone else does we have limits.

We are quite happy with our teen boys, their friends, school, dreams. They are our children our choice our problem - not school’s not society’s not other family’s children - our problem not yours - we expect the very least from other people’s children. The buck stops with you, your choice, your children, your problem.

We have so much contempt we feed 6, 7, 8 teens most weekends, plus weekdays in holidays. They clearly hate it here.

Anyone else’s children should never be my children’s problem. We bring ours up with this philosophy just basic surely.

@BeachLife2 - I asked yesterday, and I’ll ask again - why should we expect children to take responsibility for their homework, equipment etc, but don’t think they are responsible enough to decide whether or not they need their blazer on a hot day?

If you work in an office, do you ask your boss if you can take off your jacket ‘out of respect’, or do you expect to be considered sufficiently responsible to make that decision yourself? We should be letting senior school students learn how to take responsibility, not treating them like toddlers who need to be told what to wear for the weather.

What matters more - the ‘rule’ that students have to ask to remove their blazers even in 30 degree heat, or that the students are comfortable, not hot, sweaty and even faint, which will impede their learning? I’d say they are in school to get an education, so letting them take off their blazers even if they feel the need, so they are cool and comfortable enough to learn, is the right choice.

Also, as I said earlier - I have seen examples - even on this thread - of people saying that some teachers/principals do refuse permission for children to take off heavy blazers on very hot days - I have no idea why anyone would do this, but it clearly is happening.

Yes please!

You make sure that support in mainstram schools is available and funded. And if that is insufficient, thst non mainstream alternatives are available and funded. You ensure that children are dual registered if they move to Alternative Provision, that the move happens early enough and doesn't require lengthy periods of time out of school, that there is a path back to mainstream whenever that is appropriate, and not just at the post 16 cliff edge as now. And, while we're at it, post 16 AP for those who continue to need it.

I had to leave my primary school job as it wrecked my mental health. I had students in my class who were violent and should have been excluded, but weren't because we had to be 'inclusive'. It was clear my safety and wellbeing didn't matter at all.

My job was to teach. It's unfortunate that kids that get excluded will be roaming the streets and this isn't great for them or the communities, but that's not my problem as a teacher.

🙄

That child should have had that adjustment allowed. Very quietly without a fuss and ideally without the other children knowing. However, were they not even allowed a carton or juice or squash in a lunch box? You'd think there'd be a way...

We check water bottles because parents otherwise send fizzy drinks to school, or sticky juice/squash. Those things are completely unnecessary and against the (sensible) rules.

Some parents ruin things for everyone else by telling their children they can be special and break the rules just for the hell of it (I don't mean anyone with SEND btw) BTW. It starts with little things like drink bottles and escalates very quickly and easily.

Respect for what or whom? How exactly does it show respect?

In American high schools, students of different ages sit in class together and it's not a 'free for all'. Students all start high school with different abilities and attainment levels and schools slot them into tracks where their placement tests in English, math, and reading indicate they would perform best.

I am going from the age of choosing options.

Who is it respectful to? Are teachers really worried about a child putting their blazer on the back of their chair at the start of the lesson? Seems a complete waste of time, kids should be in, sat down and starting class, not spending 10 minutes asking for permission to remove a jacket.

I'm sorry "out of respect" wth does that mean? Respect for who or what? What absolute nonsense.

In my country its done after 9th grade, when they're 15/16, seems to work well but perhaps 14/15 would be better. But we have lots of practical subjects in comprehensive school (they take up far more time than any other subject actually so plenty of practical work time for those who don't get on well with the academic subjects) so school isn't too much sitting still and listening.

And they can switch paths if they want to, even do both at once, so the decision they make at 15 isn't set in stone (if they can choose, that is. I think academic high schools require a certain gpa so some might not get in even if they want to)

@Hellomeee

DC need to ask permission to remove their blazers out of respect and also because they are part of the uniform, so the default should be that they are worn at all times.

No school will require blazers to be kept on in very warm weather.

For me, it is the needing permission to take off your blazer. Especially when it's boiling hot and he teacher is up front in a summer dress and sandals. We never had to ask to take our blazers off, why has this become a thing?

By 14, yes I agree. I was assuming 11 as that's when kids change schools, in England at least.

In my opinion it offers more options , rather than a binary path. While I agree 11 is very early (in the countries i’m talking about highschool starts at 14, but they don’t know what path they’ll end up taking any more than 11 yos do), there’s the choice of where to go, there would still be in year transfers like now , 6th form or college would still be an option and then uni if that’s what’s wanted. Just because you start at the mechanics highschool, it doesn’t mean you have to stay there , or that you’ll actually become a mechanic. If we expect kids to spend 14 years in education, we should offer them more options, not less (one).

@Nasrine

There should be support in place for DC who are excluded.

However, I don't think one child should be allowed to ruin the education of 29 others who want to learn.

I think that by 14ish it's usually quite clear where a young person's aptitudes lie. The issue in the UK is that we look down on vocational subjects. Which is ridiculous, because if we trained up our own skilled people, everyone would benefit.