Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that just because you say something about Israel and Gaza does not mean that you should be threatened with arrest under the terrorism act?

482 replies

cakeorwine · 18/07/2025 18:59

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flag

She had a sign saying "Free Gaza" and "Israel is committing genocide"

She was threatened with arrest under the terrorism act because a certain group that has been deemed to be a terrorist group also share those same views - and therefore the lady was supporting a terrorist group.

In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”

He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence.

I can think of many groups who share those same beliefs. Having that belief does not mean you support that group.

A Kent police spokesperson said: “Under the Terrorism Act it is a criminal offence to carry or display items that may arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation such as Palestine Action.”

Armed police threatened to arrest Kent protester for holding Palestinian flag

Officers accused Laura Murton who also had a sign saying ‘Free Gaza’ of supporting a proscribed organisation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flag

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:27

The Judge who imposed the judgement on proscribing PA made a key point

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ammori-judgment-revised.pdf

It will remain lawful for the claimant and other persons who were members of PA prior to proscription to continue to express their opposition to Israel’s actions in Gaza and elsewhere, including by drawing attention to what they regard as Israel’s genocide and other serious violations of international law. They will remain legally entitled to do so in private conversations, in print, on social media and at protests

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ammori-judgment-revised.pdf

OP posts:
Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 12:22

How can you say discussing the protests is irrelevant to the OP! Is she just holding up a Gaza sign for the fun of it. A very insular thread this is.

Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:17

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:14

Yes it seems sensible to me. That's why I said it.

I've already explained about the reasonable suspicion/identity checks.

Why on earth are you asking me to speculate on hypothetical situations that we will never know or indeed need to know the answer to because none of that is going to happen.

You also can't credibly say what the Police thought or suspected because you aren't them and you weren't there.

You're clutching at straws and starting to look desperate I'm afraid. Feel free to have the last word but I disagree with you and like I said before feel you aren't helping yourself with some of your responses.

Show quote history

There is the video that was posted of the interaction

You can see for yourself what they said:

In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence.

OP posts:
thepariscrimefiles · 19/07/2025 12:15

2024onwardsandup · 18/07/2025 21:11

Not looks. Making a point that it seems more likely a man than a woman.

and yet in the newspaper article on thIs thread everyone is saying she. Reflecting compelled speech - which is but another side of the coin of what is being criticised

Show quote history

Her name is Laura and the article refers to her as 'she' so why would I call her 'he'?

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:14

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:35

Does it?

What happened to their "reasonable grounds to suspect"?

Do you think that if this person had refused to give their details, then the police would have arrested them under Section 12 of the UK Terrorism Act.

Do you then think that the CPS would have prosecuted them?

And what basis would that prosecution have been on?

The police had no grounds to suspect this person of "Expressing support for a proscribed organisation"

Show quote history

Yes it seems sensible to me. That's why I said it.

I've already explained about the reasonable suspicion/identity checks.

Why on earth are you asking me to speculate on hypothetical situations that we will never know or indeed need to know the answer to because none of that is going to happen.

You also can't credibly say what the Police thought or suspected because you aren't them and you weren't there.

You're clutching at straws and starting to look desperate I'm afraid. Feel free to have the last word but I disagree with you and like I said before feel you aren't helping yourself with some of your responses.

Swiftie1878 · 19/07/2025 12:03

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 19:33

You really are trying to simplify all of this. It's too complex for that.

Show quote history

No, it really isn’t.
The issues being protested about are complex.
Being allowed free speech is not complex. Not complex at all.

thepariscrimefiles · 19/07/2025 11:59

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 20:10

The law says it does. Why aren't you understanding that? It doesn't matter whether you think it's fair or not. Laws are there to govern conduct.

Show quote history

Surely you are only breaking the law if you are a member of a proscribed organisation or you have placards supporting a proscribed organisation or you are shouting about your support for the proscribed organisation? Expressing support for the Palestinians or having a placard that says 'Free Gaza' is not a criminal offence.

Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:47

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 11:38

@willyoujustbequiet you're on a hide into nothing. Remember fireworks being thrown at police and diners harassed during the protests? Nothing will convince me any good is coming from this. Nothing has or will change to events happening far away.

Irrelevant to the OP

OP posts:
Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 11:38

@willyoujustbequiet you're on a hide into nothing. Remember fireworks being thrown at police and diners harassed during the protests? Nothing will convince me any good is coming from this. Nothing has or will change to events happening far away.

Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:35

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 11:30

Hate to state the obvious but once someone is identified checks can be made. That's the entire point. They are then able to decide on balance what the appropriate action should be.

Seems entirely sensible to me.

Show quote history

Does it?

What happened to their "reasonable grounds to suspect"?

Do you think that if this person had refused to give their details, then the police would have arrested them under Section 12 of the UK Terrorism Act.

Do you then think that the CPS would have prosecuted them?

And what basis would that prosecution have been on?

The police had no grounds to suspect this person of "Expressing support for a proscribed organisation"

OP posts:
Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 11:35

pointythings · 19/07/2025 11:01

So you do want to curb the right to protest. Thank you for making it clear you support authoritarian politics.

Show quote history

Always the same dramatics with Pro Palestine. Never a middle ground, just instant knee jerk reactions to a perfectly reasonable suggestion. The freedoms are always abused.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 11:30

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:27

And that's very draconian and a misuse.

And suddenly their "reasonable suspicion" vanished after details were given.

If you "reasonably suspect" someone is supporting a proscribed organisation and you threaten them with arrest unless they tell you their details - and then they give you their details - so what changed with their "reasonable suspicion"

Show quote history

Hate to state the obvious but once someone is identified checks can be made. That's the entire point. They are then able to decide on balance what the appropriate action should be.

Seems entirely sensible to me.

Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:27

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 11:16

@cakeorwine

I disagree.

The police have always had the ability if they have reasonable grounds to suspect.

Edited

And that's very draconian and a misuse.

And suddenly their "reasonable suspicion" vanished after details were given.

If you "reasonably suspect" someone is supporting a proscribed organisation and you threaten them with arrest unless they tell you their details - and then they give you their details - so what changed with their "reasonable suspicion"

OP posts:
Dontlletmedownbruce · 19/07/2025 11:19

I agree @pointythings there are some remarkably stupid people on this thread, and in the police force it seems. If someone can't distinguish between supporting the human rights of people and supporting a terrorist organisation its a reflection on them.

It is scary though to think freedom of speech is being shut down like this. The analogy with NI upthread is a good one. If people can't peacefully gather and hold placards then that's an oppressive regime. If the police have authority to interpret those placards in whatever way they please and make assumptions about their meaning that is also signs of an oppressive regime. It makes me worry what comes next.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 11:16

@cakeorwine

I disagree.

The police have always had the ability if they have reasonable grounds to suspect.

pointythings · 19/07/2025 11:03

Turns out she was holding a Free Gaza sign another one accusing Israel of commiting genocide and a Palestinian flag and she STILL didn't get arrested, even though only a Hamas supporter would behave like this

Don't be ridiculous. Opposing what Israel is doing does not mean you support Hamas. Only a bear of very little brain would think in such simplistic terms. The world isn't black and white.

pointythings · 19/07/2025 11:01

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 10:48

The whole Saturday protest thing has got way out of hand. I often wish a government would have the balls to go whole hog and amend the Freedom of assembly legislation. It is always open to abuse and there are those who know exactly how to play it.

Show quote history

So you do want to curb the right to protest. Thank you for making it clear you support authoritarian politics.

thelakeisle · 19/07/2025 11:01

thelakeisle · 19/07/2025 10:50

Correct. I am gobsmacked that a Hamas terrorist supporter was actually even lightly tapped on the wrist, let alone arrested.

Show quote history

Turns out she was holding a Free Gaza sign another one accusing Israel of committing genocide and a Palestinian flag and she STILL didn't get arrested, even though only a Hamas supporter would behave like this.

Only a terrorist sympathiser would be upset with the police talking to her about her pro terrorist behaviour.

Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:01

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 10:57

Like I said in my previous post it's possible that the police overstep and it will all come out in the wash.

However as far as I can understand they weren't actually arrested in the end? Bit of a moot point then.

Show quote history

It's not a moot point - because the police threatened them with arrest under Section 12 unless they told the police their details.

Details were given and the threat of arrest was withdrawn.

Which seems to be a misuse of the law to get someone's details.

OP posts:
Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 10:57

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 10:54

And what about the person in the OP?

They were not holding a sign saying they supported PA but they were still threatened with arrest under Schedule 12.

Do you think the police misinterpreted the law?

Show quote history

Like I said in my previous post it's possible that the police overstep and it will all come out in the wash.

However as far as I can understand they weren't actually arrested in the end? Bit of a moot point then.

Original poster
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 10:54

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 10:50

Which is exactly what those muppets holding placards saying they supported PA did so I have no sympathy.

That does not mean I have no sympathy for women and children in Gaza.

Show quote history

And what about the person in the OP?

They were not holding a sign saying they supported PA but they were still threatened with arrest under Schedule 12.

Do you think the police misinterpreted the law?

OP posts:
thelakeisle · 19/07/2025 10:50

TooMuchLight · 18/07/2025 19:16

I think the exact opposite to you. You can say or do absolutely anything offensive, racist or inflammatory in public, without any repercussions at all - like the rap duo at Glastonbury who led the cries for " death to the idf " or kneecap waving hamas flags. Caveat being, you must be on the ' right' side of gaza/Israel. So as long as your pro Palestine, all's good.

Correct. I am gobsmacked that a Hamas terrorist supporter was actually even lightly tapped on the wrist, let alone arrested.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 10:50

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 10:45

It's very simple

It is illegal under Section 12 of the UK Terrorism Act to express support for a proscribed organisation.

It is not illegal under the UK Terrorism Act Section 12 to express an opinion about something.

Edited
Show quote history

Which is exactly what those muppets holding placards saying they supported PA did so I have no sympathy.

That does not mean I have no sympathy for women and children in Gaza.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 10:48

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 10:28

I meant cause in the sense of the thread.

Show quote history

The whole Saturday protest thing has got way out of hand. I often wish a government would have the balls to go whole hog and amend the Freedom of assembly legislation. It is always open to abuse and there are those who know exactly how to play it.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 10:45

Dideon · 19/07/2025 10:18

Maybe? Pompous, patronising, superior, belittling attitudes tend to rile people.

Show quote history

You can consider those posts all of that, but they are still in line with MN talk guidelines.

Swipe left for the next trending thread