To think a lot of women are “dating down” just to avoid being alone?

I suspect the incel movement has more in common with this "dating down" nonsense than you realise.

Incels are not annoyed that women won't date them. They are annoyed that "the women they want and feel they deserve" won't date them. In other words, and i hate to rate people, the 4's and 5's are expecting to date 8's and 9's.

From the OP it seems that that women's solution is dating down, from PP the observation is that they are "happily staying single".

Apart from the happily bit (which is subjective and open to question), that's sounding very much like the incel solution.

I’m not convinced that this is totally reliable.

My MIL is one of those women that seems to thrive on looking after her children. She enjoys it. When we visit, my husband does very little in the house. He does do traditional male stuff for her. Putting up fences and fixing stuff, for example.

At home with me, he cleans, tidies and does 95% of the cooking.

Well, if you want a family and are solvent enough, you go it alone.
What will become of these women?
I never wanted kids, but believe they would be happy mothers without the burden of an useless, entitled male in their lives.
Speaking for myself, I think that would be much better for their kids, too.

Except when those women want a family.

Our parents, and every generation before them "settled", it's only this current generation of women who think they are special and "deserve" more.

I wonder what will become of all those women?

Always been the case unfortunately but more women are choosing single life today rather than being with someone incompatible and that's an amazing thing.

Yes, this!
I'm happily "married up" 😄 for 20 years and would never consider "dating down", even
as a youngster! Absolutely NO problem being alone! Cringe.
🤯🤨

Or looking at it from another perspective.... Women no longer need a man to participate in society, so we're happy with Mr-Right-Now, rather than Mr-Right. When you're truly self sufficient, your priorities aren't the same.

So you think we live in a world where everyone is exactly similar in intelligence, integrity, social skills, parenting skills, empathy, patience, earning power and the ability to string a sentence together?

And if the man doesn't live near his parents, or have a relationship with them?

Should adults be made to answer for their parents shit relationships?

To put a contrarian point of view: I've tended to date "down" in a socioeconomic sense (not in the sense that I'll hook up with losers, bastards or people who don't pull their weight). But I prefer dating men who are of a lower socioeconomic class than me, always have done.

Two reasons:

a) I find posh English men desperately unattractive. I've dated a couple and they have been appalling in bed, very self-centred and emotionally empty. Men from lower down the socioeconomic ladder tend to be a bit more emotionally intelligent.
b) I am really frightened of the idea of being with someone wealthier than me who could control me. I would far rather be with someone who I know can't use money or status against me to put boundaries or restrictions in place. Marrying a rich man would terrify me.

I'd never actually marry one of these men (I'd never marry anyone). But I can totally relate to wanting to "date down". I think this is more common than you might think.

And what do you bring?

If you are so brilliant, then you should have attracted a man who was "worthy" of your standards.

Why don't those men want to be in a relationship with you?

Not really OP, it's just called life.

When we couldn't work we looked for man who could provide for us. Now everyone works, so we are all providing for ourselves, it takes two salaries to keep a house going these days. And since 99% of people aren't millionaires, then 99% of men are at the same level we are. But, because we innately still want a man who can "take care of us" 🙄 look around and can't see any that we think are "worthy". We really mean rich, but saying that makes is sound a little vulgar.

And since most men aren't rich, it gives the illusion that there aren’t any "good" men around.

But I'm sure men feel the same way about us too😂

I do think that a lot of people, men and women, will miss out on the chance to have a family of their own because of the idea that they can't find a "good enough" partner. People will spent their entire lives looking for the perfect person, then hit 40 and realise that the perfect person doesn't exist, but by then it's too late.

We live in such a safe and affluent world that we have the luxury of contemplation and choice. Previous generations didn't have that. There's a reason we refer to having a family or LTR as "settling down" and not "perfection down".

Agree with you, @NewPinkJacket - and I'm a lesbian. Duff relationships are entirely possible.

God, I wish I’d done this. Just now escaping this exact situation where I did indeed end up becoming his stand in ‘mother’.

Single (mum) for about the same time. It’s not a man I need, it’s staff.

This. And follow the friend trick too. Take a long hard look at his friends. Are they mature, responsible and respectful? Or are they a bunch of immature wankers who live for going down the pub?

A tip though for people looking to avoid these useless men... Follow the mum-trick.

When dating, go spend some time with him and his parents, at their home, for a day or two at least.

See how he treats his mum. If she does everything for him, and he barely helps... sits and relaxes while she does stuff.. run. That will be you.

If though he is caring for her, helps out, takes responsibility/leadership around his family/parents (where possible) great.

This needs to come in combination with a lot of other questions about how good a man your partner actually is.. not just "He has the spark, no icks, and I want to get married, have a big wedding and have a baby as soon as I can..." which seems to be the minimum requirements for some, who then realize that this rapid march to their dream-life blinded them to how useless a man they had.

This is a good point. I’ve known more than one decent guy who married on the face of it lovely women who turned out to be controlling and henpecking.

This .
A lot of my friends are single and none are looking
to settle . They are all financially independent and lead full lives . Some of the available men in their 50’s are horrific so much better to be solo.

I think you are seeing a correct problem, but not the context. For me, this is an example of generational delay

For me, what has happened is that society has changed, women have changed, and a lot of (especially older) men haven't caught up.

Go back 50-80 years and the situation was simple.

Man worked + earned money = family role done.
Women at home/doing smaller/lower-paid work = family role done.

Now though, what is the situation? Under 35 - women are better qualified than men, and earn more money than men. (the gender-pay gap is now a mother-pay gap). Women are working the same hours as men, and often have better careers than their husbands.

The logical answer is that if women take over a larger proportion of the earning, men must take over a larger proportion of the house/parental responsibility. Male activists will say this is against biology, and maybe it is, but it is also inevitable, otherwise men have less value (which is what the OP is describing).

The problem is that change like this take a long time. Men today, especially those 30-60 years old, were raised by women who often lived in the marriages that were more like the older arrangement. They raised their sons to expect to be men who earned and were taken care of - but now that isn't the case.

(No, this doesn't mean that it is women's fault.. it isn't those mum's fault at all. they raised their sons inline with society at the time. They didn't know that society would change so much)

What should happen now is that mums today, existing in the current relationship dynamics, should start to raise sons that are more suited for the current relationship dynamics. And slowly more and more men should gain the responsibilities and skills needed for modern relationship dynamics.

Another good example of generational delay is Female CEOs.. you cannot enact a policy and suddenly have an equal number of Female CEOs, even if you made society 100% equal between men + women today, that would only level the playing field for women born today, who would take 50+ years to be in a position to be a CEO. Most societal change, takes years and years and multiple generaitons to filter through.

The adjustment of men to be suitable for modern relationships is one example of this. It is happening, just too slowly, and the current generation is the unfortunate ones in the middle, who have to deal with a generation of men who are not ready for the relationship world they now find themselves in.

I think , for me, the realisation that men who are 50+ want to settle down (get married, live together) so that they have someone to look after them and men in their 30s and 40s are walking erections, made me realise that being single is blissfully joyful 😀

PS - for the record, erections are fine. Constant/permanent erections are exhausting (for me)

It’s always been the case. Especially if you live in a small area and don’t tend to leave your immediate surroundings much and are unfortunate enough to live in a area that breeds misogynistic men.
i like to think it’s improving and more women are opting to be single over poor relationships or insisting their dp steps up.
unfortunately a lot of men play the long game and only show their full true colours once kids are on the scene making it harder for a woman to leave
.
When I look at my parents marriage my mother was a victim of dv , did all household tasks but stayed for the kids. My dh has many wonderful qualities but can be selfish and prioritise him self and I definitely carry more of the household/kids although probably 30/70. My dd expects 50/50 contribution with the partner she lives with but they don’t have children so we shall see. (But she is still the driving force it’s not automatic)

Oh for god's sake!

Stop using facts to prove your point! You can use facts to prove anything that's even vaguely true!

Actually, statistically women marry up in terms of income and education. BUT there are increasing numbers of women who are better paid and educated and the pool at the top of the income/education pyramid obviously gets pretty small.

I went to a wedding once and cried driving home from it for this exact reason.

The woman was a professional earning 150k per year and owned a 500k home. She was lovely and from a lovely family. Never married no kids.
she married a divorced guy who had no money ‘due to his divorce’ he asked my friend to marry him the same month as his divorce. Hes s piece of work, works in some sort of assistant at a law firm. Bald. About 5ft 4. Nasty - always leaving her.

I was single at the time of attending this wedding and was so triggered by the whole thing.

I guess it was me being shown what potentially I would have to ‘settle for’ if I chose to settle as you say. and really if her new husband had been in her situation I know for a fact he would not have settled for his male equivalent.

I found the whole wedding sobering and highlighted the above