AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

Have explained why you mentioned Gaza even though its got nothing to do with Jews in the UK?

Diane is obviously unwell, you can see visible signs of physical deterioration, who knows what else is going on. She should retire.

Yes, which is why she should stick to discussing the racism experienced by black people, and not arrogantly think she can tell us how Jewish people feel as opposed to how black people feel. Honestly every interview she gives - the gift that keeps on giving….

surely it's all dependent on context anyway?
e.g. a black person living in kenya might not experience racism in their daily life.
a white person living in china might.
The experiences of a white jew and brown muslim might be very different depending on whether they live in Israel or Iran.

I don't understand how someone so experienced in politics has been stupid enough to double down on the same thing she got suspended for and withdrew last time. She needs to learn you don't have to actually say everything in your head, ffs. If that's what she thinks, she's entitled to her opinion but don't say it in a public forum after you've already been criticised for it once.

I remember the swastikas carved into desks from when I was at school in the 90s, lovely for me to sit there wondering which of my classmates had found it amusing to carve a symbol representing a movement that led to some of my extended family being murdered.

But I potentially ‘pass’ as non-Jewish, so obviously this didn’t have any psychological affect on me.

And? That doesn’t give someone a free pass to spout uneducated rubbish. She can’t say racism is not as bad for Jewish people or travellers, because she’s never walked in their shoes. How arrogant and patronising she is.

Aside from the fact that many Jewish people are visibly Jewish and the vast majority of Travellers are very obviously visibly Travellers, her statement completely minimises the persecution of these two groups in particular.

I have a family connection to the Travelling community and the overt racism and discrimination they face is appalling but totally socially acceptable. From 1940 until 1980, Scottish Travellers were the victims of forced assimilation and removal of children through the state sponsored “Tinker Experiment” in a deliberate attempt to wipe out their culture and community. Swathes of children were ripped away from their families and stripped of their identity. To liken this (and centuries of Jewish persecution) to bullying people with ginger hair is shameful. DA can speak about her experience of racism as a Black woman but she has no authority to speak on or compare the experiences of other minorities.

If anyone is interested, there’s a podcast called The Cruelty which investigates the oppression of Scottish Travellers during the “Tinker Experiment” presented by a member of the community.

I expect you mean well but IMO ‘privilege’ is a grossly offensive word to apply to members of minority groups who can ‘pass’ in at least some circumstances. It shouldn’t be considered a ‘privilege’ for those people not to face direct violence, it’s just the wrong word. Also as a PP mentioned, not being visibly a member of a minority can sometimes mean people express their prejudices to you more directly as they don’t realise you are a member of the group they are abusing.

In any case, prejudice and discrimination affect people’s lives whether they can ‘pass’ or not, it’s not exactly a privilege to know that being treated decently is contingent on having to hide or lie about your Jewishness, and to live in fear of being abused if people found out about it. You’re ignoring the fact that people are psychologically affected by prejudice whether or not they can ‘pass’. Constantly having to gauge people’s attitudes and levels of hostility and whether it’s safe to disclose or not is its own form of stress. Feeling the need to lie and hide about a basic fact of your life is an effect of discrimination.

You can put her on a pedestal all you like- just don't expect the rest of us to. She's fallible, just like anybody else.

I listened to the interview. She makes things up as she goes along. Of course Jewish people are mostly visibly Jewish. We have a large Jewish community in the North, and it is absolutely obvious on most occasions. Racism is racism. Fed up of people of colour thinking they have a monopoly of the label. It really was shocking hearing the rubbish coming out of Abbot’s mouth.

Because suggesting that no one can ever tell if you’re Jewish or a traveller is either ignorant or badly worded. Considering she is so highly educated, I am assuming it’s the latter.

That letter comes across as though she is specifically saying black people endure worse that others based upon instant prejudice - yet other groups do suffer from instant prejudice. She can speak on behalf of her own experiences, but to suggest that others don’t suffer from instant prejudice is utterly ridiculous.

"Her parents were a welder and a nurse. She got into Cambridge as a black working class girl in the early 70s. She became the first black woman MP in the history of the UK. She’s beaten odds and achieved stuff that the vast majority of her detractors can’t even imagine."

That'a given but she is very obviously maximising racism experienced by black people in the UK conflating it with how blackpeople in America were treated historically while minimising racism experienced by other races such as Jews and travellers, dismissing their appalling experiences/ treatment as merely prejudice, purely on the basis they can pass as white.

Isn't that in itself racist?

This 100pc

Iike and admire Diane Abbot

I don’t know how anyone can read the second paragraph of her letter and not see a red flag she’s is a well educated woman so the minimising is deliberate. The ignoring of the very obvious example of the holocaust without even getting into the Jewish experience in USA in that time period.
jewish schools have security patrols and I’m currently writing this from a lay-by with swastika grafitti, quite the red head experience for me.

She thinks black people are easily identifiable and therefore easily discriminated against.

Is it that she’s worded it badly, or is it because she thinks black people experience more and/or worse racism than Jewish and Irish traveller people? As someone said above, she’s an intelligent, driven women who’s overcome barriers to achieve a position of influence and power. So why don’t we do her the credit of saying that what she chose to write (and double down on) does actually represent what she thinks, rather than that ‘she worded it badly’? I think she worded it exactly as she meant to word it, and that’s why she’s defending it, and why others are criticising her for it

The question of whether Judaism is a religion or a race or both is a complex one, but how you see Harrison Ford is completely irrelevant to deciding it. Judaism is traditionally considered, by Jews, to be passed through the mother, so there is a biological element to it, it’s not just about religious belief.

Yes, as I said, so do I. But people will be up in arms about this due to that, and thus they are. Labour has a history of antisemitism. That antisemitism accusations was under a microscope during Corbyn (even though there are now receipts to prove he isn’t and wasn’t antisemitic) but she was of that era. It doesn’t surprise me given the wording of her letter that people are making conclusions.

All I have said is that she has worded it badly and hasn’t taken into consideration others who also suffer the same instant prejudice, including some of the groups she has vehemently said don’t.

Yes, possibly. But I discern her meaning.

Yes of course, that’s very obvious, but the way she has written it doesn’t take into account others who also suffer the same instant prejudice. For example, she mentions Jews, but some branches of Orthodox Jews are instantly recognisable as being Jewish. I get what she is saying, but it’s not worded well, that’s my point.

She has mentioned black people because she is black, no?

The problem is the way she has worded this. It comes across as ‘black people have it worse’ when she could have said that those with obvious differences do. She hasn’t mentioned Asian people at all. What about people who are clearly Muslim after 9/11 and 7/7? We have a large Hasidic population near me, what about them? You can’t hide your Jewish faith if you’re wearing the garb.

She has a point about instant racism/prejudice, but she hasn’t expressed it very well at all. It’s very badly worded and has sounds like a competition (not a competition, that’s me badly wording things, but I’m tired and I can’t think of the phrase I mean).

Well yes, they exist. I'm not sure what your point is though.

I'd also argue an orthodox Jew by default would wear at least some clothing relating to their faith. Else how could one identify them as orthodox?

You can remind all you like but she’s be better off not minimising antisemitism since she doesn’t know how others have felt.