AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

No, you don’t agree that those racist views are historic and deeply rooted in some peoples beliefs systems - but they are, there is a lot of evidence that they are. The fact that it did affect institutions to the point where the police and MPs didn’t believe it and that half of society didn’t believe it and that the families of those men all defended it because ‘white girls’ and that you are here still suggesting it isn’t the same thing only backs my beliefs.

I am not comparing it to other forms of racism, I don’t believe that this situation takes away from the other horrific things that have happened and still happen every single day. But I am going to acknowledge that it is there.

It doesn’t mean that other forms of racism are suddenly lessened.

Anyway, I didn’t want to discuss Rotherham, I came here to say what I said in the beginning. Now it’s tomorrow and I am going to bed. No hard feelings and goodnight.

ETA. I apologise for helping to derail the thread

I don’t need to talk about all that. Don’t mistake my bluntness here for lack of awareness or intelligence. I believe in intersectionality but sometimes it can be an evasive tactic for uncomfortable facts.

White girls were systemically abused and raped across the U.K. for decades by South Asian men who used them because raping girls from their own community was frowned upon. The ‘men’ (I wish we’d stipulate the demographics of men in VAWG) cannot be deported back to their country of origin (Pakistan) as even Pakistan have said they’d essentially be shamed out of their community or killed as it’s so shameful.

Because of the perpetrators race this was covered up by many of our institutions and has been admitted in many Gov reports now.

I’d like to get back to the main topic but the gaslighting around this subject / ignorance of obvious pattern recognition does the survivors a real disservice.

I'm sorry you experienced that at 12 - no one should ever have to carry that, and it’s absolutely valid to speak from that place. But personal trauma and systemic racism aren’t the same thing. The former is real and devastating. The latter is about how power operates across entire institutions and histories.

Again, no one here has denied that those men held racialised, misogynistic views - that’s been acknowledged multiple times. What’s being questioned is the attempt to redefine systemic racism based on one horrific context. That doesn’t minimise what happened - it’s about keeping the definition of systemic racism rooted in structural reality, not just personal horror.

Agreeing to disagree is fine — but let’s be clear on what we’re actually disagreeing about. Not the pain. Not the wrongness of the abuse. But how we define systems of power.

The Rotheram girls have been hidden away and told to shut up, enough. They are very relevant when somebody is trying to say that white females are not subject to sexism AND racism.

Let me be crystal clear: nothing I’ve said suggests that the abuse of those girls was acceptable - and suggesting otherwise is a gross misrepresentation. What happened was horrific, and the victims deserved protection, justice, and dignity. Full stop.

But recognising that a group of men held racialised, misogynistic views and carried out coordinated abuse does not mean there’s now a system of racism against white people. Systemic racism isn’t just about patterns - it’s about where power lies across institutions over time. These girls were failed by systems, yes - but not because those systems were built to oppress white people.

If you want to talk about institutional neglect, misogyny, classism, and the racialisation of victims, I’m right there with you. But let’s not twist the definition of systemic racism to score rhetorical points. That helps no one - least of all the survivors.

Forgive me but you’re making it sound like it’s okay for white girls to be punished by a minority male group because of systemic racism against other groups by the whites? If you’re talking about power - these girls had no power and in fighting it still don’t have power due to race dynamics.

I would say the sheer amount of victims and their shared characteristics, the way it’s across the U.K. in multiple areas - would now make it systemic.

Except they have denied it was racism which is why I spoke up in the first place. Misquoting me won’t get me to change my mind either. You don’t think their views come from systemic racism - I would beg to differ. There are views on white women and girls held in some countries that back up a lot of what those men said. Just because this was the only case of rapes doesn’t mean it’s the only case of those views, because I’ve experienced it myself, when I was 12.

But we can agree to disagree.

As a Jewish person, I have experienced racism, because of the way I look. My children have been verbally abused and threatened with physical violence in public, most recently in the past month, and my children experience constant Anti-semitic at school. Anti-Semitism is endemic in London currently, with weekly hate marches which makes the majority of zone 1 unsafe for Jews.

My family were murdered in the Holocaust for being Jewish, despite not being religious. It was down to their race. The survivors then experienced death threats and had to leave their country. They left with only the clothes on their back.

Prior to this, their relatives were murdered in pogroms.

So yes, we do experience racism.

I cannot speak for her experiences of racism , and nor can she speak for mine.

Yeah I don’t buy this Indian and chinese households have the highest earning households in the UK, the poorest earning are pakistani. Where does this indicate systemic racism.

The suffering of those girls is not up for debate - and no one here has denied the racialised views behind the abuse. But acknowledging that doesn’t rewrite what systemic racism means. One horrific case doesn’t flip centuries of social structure. That’s not how oppression works - and no amount of misquoting people changes that.

She’s right-so right it’s crazy that anyone is questioning it. I have Jewish acquaintances that no one would know were Jewish. You can’t hide being black or Asian (nor should you have to).

If you read my original message about Rotherham, it was responding to someone who said it wasn’t racist. By denying its racist is a massive issue. I wasn’t the one who brought it up and I don’t agree that it should be used as some form of trump card against other racism.

To be honest, I have no idea how to end racism. But I don’t believe that saying ‘well that form of racism isn’t as important because XYZ’ is the answer, and there is a bit of dismissing and minimising happening here. Accepting that Rotherham was a huge issue that stemmed from racism doesn’t take away from other forms of racism.

Forgive me but you’re making it sound like it’s okay for white girls to be punished by a minority male group because of systemic racism against other groups by the whites? If you’re talking about power - these girls had no power and in fighting it still don’t have power due to race dynamics.

I would say the sheer amount of victims and their shared characteristics, the way it’s across the U.K. in multiple areas - would now make it systemic.

No one has said all forms of racism are equal, but another poster tried to suggest that those rapes weren’t based upon racism and they were. Accepting that doesn’t mean that suddenly other forms of racism don’t matter. The fact that so many people didn’t accept that is was racism originally is why it was allowed to con tie for so damned long.

Accepting that doesn’t take away how anyone else has suffered and still suffers. It doesn’t work like that.

Ph and by the way, those rapes happens due to historical beliefs and power.

You're entitled to disagree - but mistaking racial slurs for systemic racism is like confusing a punchline with the entire plot.

Just because race was mentioned doesn’t mean power structures were reversed.

Individual prejudice, even when racialised, isn't the same as structural oppression.

I don't think anyone is saying those rapists weren't racist. Racism against white people.

And isn't this the heart of the issue, structural racism, like the Bristol Bus company banning black employees in the 1960's, or structural racism in institutions like education and the police are a very different beast to a group of immigrant descent or recent immigrant Pakistani men in the UK.

If we are serious about 'stamping it out' you have to take a different approach to each form of racism surely?

Forgive me but you’re making it sound like it’s okay for white girls to be punished by a minority male group because of systemic racism against other groups by the whites? If you’re talking about power - these girls had no power and in fighting it still don’t have power due to race dynamics.

I would say the sheer amount of victims and their shared characteristics, the way it’s across the U.K. in multiple areas - would now make it systemic.

You're entitled to disagree - but mistaking racial slurs for systemic racism is like confusing a punchline with the entire plot.

Just because race was mentioned doesn’t mean power structures were reversed.

No one has said all forms of racism are equal, but another poster tried to suggest that those rapes weren’t based upon racism and they were. Accepting that doesn’t mean that suddenly other forms of racism don’t matter. The fact that so many people didn’t accept that is was racism originally is why it was allowed to con tie for so damned long.

Accepting that doesn’t take away how anyone else has suffered and still suffers. It doesn’t work like that.

Ph and by the way, those rapes happens due to historical beliefs and power.

Nothing about this conversation has minimised antisemitism or the abuse of white girls. What has been resisted is the impulse to weaponise those tragedies to shut down discussions about structural racism.

If complexity feels like a competition to you, that says more about your lens than anyone else's intent. Bowing out is your right - but don’t pretend it’s a moral high ground when it’s just an exit from nuance.

No one has said all forms of racism are equal, but another poster tried to suggest that those rapes weren’t based upon racism and they were. Accepting that doesn’t mean that suddenly other forms of racism don’t matter. The fact that so many people didn’t accept that is was racism originally is why it was allowed to con tie for so damned long.

Accepting that doesn’t take away how anyone else has suffered and still suffers. It doesn’t work like that.

Ph and by the way, those rapes happens due to historical beliefs and power.

So you won’t admit that those men held racist views? They chose white girls for a reason - due to the colour of their skin. Due to deep rooted views on white girls. That’s racism.

Why are we comparing levels of racism? We don’t have to. We can accept that all prejudice is wrong on all levels and we need to do everything to stamp all of it out. And that includes men seeing white girls as rape targets due to the colour of their skin.

So we've not only got antisemitism being minimised but the targetted rape of white girls - all in the name of battling to see who is oppressed the most. Yuck. I'm not engaging with certain posters, any further.