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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
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16
SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 12:36

You haven't droned on at all, its a heartening story.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 12:30

Oshio · 21/07/2025 12:25

Thanks Sharon

Hes a really interesting kid and I'm really proud of his choices.

He was a very advanced kid - A Levels early and so on, and he was always really interested in history and philosophy.

Philosophy wasn't available as a subject at the Christian school he attended, so he did religious studies as it had quite a lot of similarities. He wasn't religious at all though, he thought himself an athiest but he read the entire bible when he was 12 (??!!) because he was just interested in what it was that pulled people in.

He studied our family background and found out lots of details on it, ancestry and Holocaust history etc, as a hobby tied in with his passion for history and then it all kind of came together and he realised he wanted to convert to judaism.

He is so committed, and it's unusual to see a young person really interested in religion but he believes its the right path for him. He sacrifices a lot to commit himself to it and he's been so upset by what's going on right now.

My family are a mix of religions bit generally Christian and my Mum is a really devoted, church every week type of person. She goes on church trips and so on.

One of the nicest things is that my son, who's now obviously very knowledgeable about scripture, teaches her lots of things she didn't know and they have these lovely long talks about it.

He will make a fantastic rabbi if he manages to get there as he has a lovely way of engaging people, listening, and teaching in ways people can connect with. He even got me interested in theology!

Anyway, I am super proud, and so I've droned on, but it's incredibly sad that he feels he has to hide this to be safe outside nowadays.

❤️ 🫂

Oshio · 21/07/2025 12:25

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 11:55

Thanks @Oshio, its interesting to learn about your son's journey. I was talking to someone recently about how learning about antisemitism and taking on that historic burden is part of the conversion process. It is not something that is taken on lightly and takes great courage. I hope your son finds peace and fulfilment.

Thanks Sharon

Hes a really interesting kid and I'm really proud of his choices.

He was a very advanced kid - A Levels early and so on, and he was always really interested in history and philosophy.

Philosophy wasn't available as a subject at the Christian school he attended, so he did religious studies as it had quite a lot of similarities. He wasn't religious at all though, he thought himself an athiest but he read the entire bible when he was 12 (??!!) because he was just interested in what it was that pulled people in.

He studied our family background and found out lots of details on it, ancestry and Holocaust history etc, as a hobby tied in with his passion for history and then it all kind of came together and he realised he wanted to convert to judaism.

He is so committed, and it's unusual to see a young person really interested in religion but he believes its the right path for him. He sacrifices a lot to commit himself to it and he's been so upset by what's going on right now.

My family are a mix of religions bit generally Christian and my Mum is a really devoted, church every week type of person. She goes on church trips and so on.

One of the nicest things is that my son, who's now obviously very knowledgeable about scripture, teaches her lots of things she didn't know and they have these lovely long talks about it.

He will make a fantastic rabbi if he manages to get there as he has a lovely way of engaging people, listening, and teaching in ways people can connect with. He even got me interested in theology!

Anyway, I am super proud, and so I've droned on, but it's incredibly sad that he feels he has to hide this to be safe outside nowadays.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 11:55

Thanks @Oshio, its interesting to learn about your son's journey. I was talking to someone recently about how learning about antisemitism and taking on that historic burden is part of the conversion process. It is not something that is taken on lightly and takes great courage. I hope your son finds peace and fulfilment.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 11:00

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2025 08:17

Just FYI, Frummie absolutely does not speak for all Jewish people with this narrow-minded view of what a Jew is. Not everyone converts orthodox, but they're still converts and therefore still Jewish.

Thank you, my son has found every Jewish person in his life to be very welcoming 🙏 . He happens to want to convert to Orthodox or Conservative Judaism as he is deeply religious - his personal choice - so that's slowed completing the process down as more is needed that he's not able to do with the current parameters he's got, but he's doing everything he can and I can't imagine anyone being more committed than he is.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 10:55

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:15

I am a frum Jew and I do understand kashrut laws, which is why I immediately questioned the story of the kosher-keeping Jew who ate Tunisian chicken but then had an issue with the baklava.

Turns out he was born a non-Jew but pretend converted, aka cultural appropriation.

There are secular Jews who were born Jewish and I'm not questioning their Jewishness. But those who weren't born Jewish should kindly not just put on a kippah and claim antisemitism. To me that smacks of Dolezalism.

There isn't a Beth Din that would convert a non-Jew if he wasn't ready to start keeping kosher.

No, he didn’t “pretend” to convert or culturally appropriate anything. Not that it’s any of your business, but let me spell it out.

He has a Jewish grandparent as i said in my first post, and took a deep interest in Judaism from a young age. He didn’t just throw on a kippah and start calling himself Jewish, that took years.

He’s currently in his third year of a master’s in Biblical Studies, spends a huge amount of his time in private study and prayer, and just completed a summer course in beginner’s Biblical Hebrew. After his degree, he plans to go to Israel to study language further - and hopes to eventually become a rabbi.

He initiated the conversion process himself through his university chaplaincy, under the guidance of a kind and supportive rabbi and his wife, who visit monthly for Shabbat with the students. That rabbi has encouraged him to live according to Jewish law as much as his circumstances allow—and that’s exactly what he’s doing.

He studies, observes the various things, and commits sincerely to a Jewish life—even with significant limitations. That’s what real conversion looks like.

He can’t attend synagogue regularly because he’s disabled and the nearest one is hours away. He also can’t fully keep kosher, because he lacks access to a private kitchen and receives meal support due to his disability. The meals provided aren’t kosher - but he still does not eat meat and dairy, doesn’t eat pork, and keeps all Jewish holidays, including the fasts. He no longer celebrates Christmas - not an easy decision for him, or for me, but one I deeply respect. He wears a kippah, even if discreetly for safety, and is an active member of his JSoc.

Most importantly, he lives with kindness and integrity. And because of his decision to live visibly and proudly as a Jew-in-process, he’s faced serious antisemitic abuse. His Grandfather was a Jew from Thessaloniki who lost most of his family in the Holocaust.

So no - it’s not cultural appropriation. It’s commitment, courage, and faith. Kindly sit down.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 09:38

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:59

None of them Jewish.

They would find that opinion very upsetting. Luckily their Rabbis and communities don't agree and its not really possible for me as a non-Jew to go into it any further. For the purposes of this conversation they are still subject to antisemitism. 2 of them have obviously Jewish surnames due to marriage. Their children have Jewish names which are visible in job applications, medical appointments, when they make payments or show ID and within their communities at college and work. They wear signifiers of Jewishness, their synagogues and community organisations are impacted by antisemitism.

Longingdreamer · 21/07/2025 09:20

Frummie · 21/07/2025 09:01

That sounds suspiciously like the arguments for accepting transwomen as women, and the argument is just as phony.

Excuse me?!

Judaism is an ethno-religion, and those who have Jewish ancestry are considered Jewish as a result. There is a wide spectrum of religious practice, and it's not up to any one individual to gate keep who is Jewish. This has nothing to do with transwomen.

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 09:08

Frummie · 21/07/2025 09:01

That sounds suspiciously like the arguments for accepting transwomen as women, and the argument is just as phony.

Shoehorning transphobia into it as well. Nice look.

Luckily most people aren't as exclusive as you, otherwise Judaism would have died out and we know who'd be pleased about that don't we.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 09:01

Longingdreamer · 21/07/2025 08:43

The state of Israel also considers those with only one Jewish grandparent, who may not be practising themselves, to be Jewish. It's not up to you to gatekeep who is Jewish.

Anti-Semites don't check Jews level of religious practise either.

We should be united, and not attempt to divide with arbitrary criteria.

That sounds suspiciously like the arguments for accepting transwomen as women, and the argument is just as phony.

nomas · 21/07/2025 09:01

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:51

It's being manipulative, as are quite a few posts.

How is she being manipulative? Is she not allowed an opinion?

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:59

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 08:21

Absolutely. I know several converts. None of them orthodox. None of them keep kosher.

None of them Jewish.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:51

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:49

I’m still not seeing why a Jewish person giving her view of what Jewishness is is gaslighting. It’s fin to disagree but calling it gaslighting is weird.

It's being manipulative, as are quite a few posts.

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:49

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:34

You are rigidly defending something here.

I’m still not seeing why a Jewish person giving her view of what Jewishness is is gaslighting. It’s fin to disagree but calling it gaslighting is weird.

Longingdreamer · 21/07/2025 08:43

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:19

Even the secular State of Israel, which has a broader definition of who is a Jew, only accepts Orthodox conversion. Surely it's up to the Jews to determine the criteria.

The state of Israel also considers those with only one Jewish grandparent, who may not be practising themselves, to be Jewish. It's not up to you to gatekeep who is Jewish.

Anti-Semites don't check Jews level of religious practise either.

We should be united, and not attempt to divide with arbitrary criteria.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:34

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:32

So what do you think gaslighting means?

You are rigidly defending something here.

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:32

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:31

3 times now.

So what do you think gaslighting means?

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:31

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:31

Gaslighting is a specific form of emotional abuse and mental manipulation that disrupts your ability to trust others and yourself.

You keep misusing it.

3 times now.

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:31

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:29

That's twice you've said that to me. Do you not see the irony? I know what I mean.

Gaslighting is a specific form of emotional abuse and mental manipulation that disrupts your ability to trust others and yourself.

You keep misusing it.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:29

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:26

That’s not what gaslighting means.

That's twice you've said that to me. Do you not see the irony? I know what I mean.

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:26

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:19

Jews gaslighting fellow Jews now; as if there's not enough hostility from outside the community. I don't know why we are still on this. @Elephantiner hasn't returned. She knew what she was doing.

That’s not what gaslighting means.

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 08:24

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:19

Even the secular State of Israel, which has a broader definition of who is a Jew, only accepts Orthodox conversion. Surely it's up to the Jews to determine the criteria.

I'm not talking about conversion, I'm talking about practice.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 08:21

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2025 08:17

Just FYI, Frummie absolutely does not speak for all Jewish people with this narrow-minded view of what a Jew is. Not everyone converts orthodox, but they're still converts and therefore still Jewish.

Absolutely. I know several converts. None of them orthodox. None of them keep kosher.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 08:19

Jews gaslighting fellow Jews now; as if there's not enough hostility from outside the community. I don't know why we are still on this. @Elephantiner hasn't returned. She knew what she was doing.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 08:19

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 07:30

That kind of narrow and exclusive view of Judaism is incredibly out of date. There are many atheist and secular Jews who would not recognise your version of what you must do and be to be considered "truly" Jewish.

Even the secular State of Israel, which has a broader definition of who is a Jew, only accepts Orthodox conversion. Surely it's up to the Jews to determine the criteria.