Page 18 | AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

Elephantiner · 2025-07-17T13:18:00+00:00

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here? Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

nomas · 18/07/2025 10:41

JudgeJ · 18/07/2025 10:29

Who is the white saviour?

A phrase used by the non-white racists, and there are plenty.

I thought @Dangermoo is white?

beAsensible1 · 18/07/2025 10:41

soddingspiderseason · 17/07/2025 14:25

I don’t think there should be a hierarchy of racism. In terms of history, the Jewish community has experienced racism for thousands of years - the colour of their skin is irrelevant. I really don’t like this type of comparison, and it feels intrinsically wrong.

But in her interview she didn’t say that she said the article she wrote was incorrect and was not what she meant.

she expressly didn’t use the words hierarchy of racism. She said that visible difference can make racism more immediate and thus different.

as explained if a brown person and white Jewish person are walking down the street. Without religious identifiers one is noticeably different than the other.

I don’t get why everyone is pretending this isn’t he case. And adding in extra words that were not said.

nomas · 18/07/2025 10:39

GrooveArmada · 18/07/2025 10:33

As a follow up to my previous thought, I think the problem with Abbott's comment is that she incorrectly assumes that racism against Black people is the worst form of racism because it's automatically based on the person's appearance (skin colour).

What she doesn't comprehend, because she is not Jewish or not from the Traveller community is that there are other factors which may be linked to appearance or the way in which a person in question conducts themselves that will make their heritage/faith immediately clear to others and make them vulnerable to racism in exactly the same way.

What she also fails to understand is that racist attitudes fluctuate depending on time in history. It is entirely wrong of her to assume only racism against the Black community is systemic. Racist attitudes towards both, the Jewish community and the Traveller community have been embedded since forever, and in fact at present there is a high risk of exposure to racism especially for the Jewish community because of the political situation - attitudes are inflamed. Racist is embedded in respect of all of the above communities, sadly. But the reality is that the risk of exposure to it for the relevant community and the racist attitudes spike or decrease depending on what is happening at any given time. These concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Thus, it is wrong of her (and of anyone) to compare the experience of a number of groups that isn't her lived experience because she doesn't belong to them.

It is also wrong of her to even suggest racism against one group is worse for any reason - racism is wrong full stop, there is no hierarchy of victims here which is what she essentially means.

I actually think what she said, consistently, is inherently racist.

Edited

But the reality is that the risk of exposure to it for the relevant community and the racist attitudes spike or decrease depending on what is happening at any given time.

I don't think this is true.

Black people are always the most targeted in stop and search.

Black people are 16 times more likely to be prosecuted under joint enterprise than white people.

Black students in some contexts face disproportionately high rates of poverty, discrimination, and systemic inequalities.

I'm not black but even I can see that the racism against black people is consistent and systemic beyond what any other community (including my own) experience.

SharonEllis · 18/07/2025 10:37

GrooveArmada · 18/07/2025 10:33

As a follow up to my previous thought, I think the problem with Abbott's comment is that she incorrectly assumes that racism against Black people is the worst form of racism because it's automatically based on the person's appearance (skin colour).

What she doesn't comprehend, because she is not Jewish or not from the Traveller community is that there are other factors which may be linked to appearance or the way in which a person in question conducts themselves that will make their heritage/faith immediately clear to others and make them vulnerable to racism in exactly the same way.

What she also fails to understand is that racist attitudes fluctuate depending on time in history. It is entirely wrong of her to assume only racism against the Black community is systemic. Racist attitudes towards both, the Jewish community and the Traveller community have been embedded since forever, and in fact at present there is a high risk of exposure to racism especially for the Jewish community because of the political situation - attitudes are inflamed. Racist is embedded in respect of all of the above communities, sadly. But the reality is that the risk of exposure to it for the relevant community and the racist attitudes spike or decrease depending on what is happening at any given time. These concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Thus, it is wrong of her (and of anyone) to compare the experience of a number of groups that isn't her lived experience because she doesn't belong to them.

It is also wrong of her to even suggest racism against one group is worse for any reason - racism is wrong full stop, there is no hierarchy of victims here which is what she essentially means.

I actually think what she said, consistently, is inherently racist.

Edited

Good post.

OpheliaWasntMad · 18/07/2025 10:36

GrooveArmada · 18/07/2025 10:33

As a follow up to my previous thought, I think the problem with Abbott's comment is that she incorrectly assumes that racism against Black people is the worst form of racism because it's automatically based on the person's appearance (skin colour).

What she doesn't comprehend, because she is not Jewish or not from the Traveller community is that there are other factors which may be linked to appearance or the way in which a person in question conducts themselves that will make their heritage/faith immediately clear to others and make them vulnerable to racism in exactly the same way.

What she also fails to understand is that racist attitudes fluctuate depending on time in history. It is entirely wrong of her to assume only racism against the Black community is systemic. Racist attitudes towards both, the Jewish community and the Traveller community have been embedded since forever, and in fact at present there is a high risk of exposure to racism especially for the Jewish community because of the political situation - attitudes are inflamed. Racist is embedded in respect of all of the above communities, sadly. But the reality is that the risk of exposure to it for the relevant community and the racist attitudes spike or decrease depending on what is happening at any given time. These concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Thus, it is wrong of her (and of anyone) to compare the experience of a number of groups that isn't her lived experience because she doesn't belong to them.

It is also wrong of her to even suggest racism against one group is worse for any reason - racism is wrong full stop, there is no hierarchy of victims here which is what she essentially means.

I actually think what she said, consistently, is inherently racist.

Edited

“What she also fails to understand is that racist attitudes fluctuate depending on time in history. It is entirely wrong of her to assume only racism against the Black community is systemic”
Absolutely.

GrooveArmada · 18/07/2025 10:33

As a follow up to my previous thought, I think the problem with Abbott's comment is that she incorrectly assumes that racism against Black people is the worst form of racism because it's automatically based on the person's appearance (skin colour).

What she doesn't comprehend, because she is not Jewish or not from the Traveller community is that there are other factors which may be linked to appearance or the way in which a person in question conducts themselves that will make their heritage/faith immediately clear to others and make them vulnerable to racism in exactly the same way.

What she also fails to understand is that racist attitudes fluctuate depending on time in history. It is entirely wrong of her to assume only racism against the Black community is systemic. Racist attitudes towards both, the Jewish community and the Traveller community have been embedded since forever, and in fact at present there is a high risk of exposure to racism especially for the Jewish community because of the political situation - attitudes are inflamed. Racist is embedded in respect of all of the above communities, sadly. But the reality is that the risk of exposure to it for the relevant community and the racist attitudes spike or decrease depending on what is happening at any given time. These concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Thus, it is wrong of her (and of anyone) to compare the experience of a number of groups that isn't her lived experience because she doesn't belong to them.

It is also wrong of her to even suggest racism against one group is worse for any reason - racism is wrong full stop, there is no hierarchy of victims here which is what she essentially means.

I actually think what she said, consistently, is inherently racist.

JudgeJ · 18/07/2025 10:29

Who is the white saviour?

A phrase used by the non-white racists, and there are plenty.

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 10:14

As a Jewish person of colour, I say that DA is completely wrong. And it upsets me deeply to see the widespread ignorance around antisemitism manifested in this thread, on MN and in society as a whole.

But I am also forever grateful to those of you who are real anti-racists and see the "subtle" antisemitism around us. Thank you is just not enough in these times.

Seagullsandsausagerolls · 18/07/2025 09:51

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IncyWincyEyeroll · 18/07/2025 09:47

And the idea of saying Jewish people never had to sit at the back of the bus when 6 million Jewish people were systematically rounded up and killed by the engines of their own state and within living memory - it just blows my mind to be honest. The history of racism for both (and other) groups, and the way that echos into the current day, are beyond terrible. There is no competition here.

nomas · 18/07/2025 09:47

As a South Asian female who is often mistaken for European/white, I still experience racism which leaves me blindsided for days. I remember every single incident vividly, even the ones from years ago.

I can only imagine how much worse it must be for black people. And also how much worse for people who wear the hijab, kippah, sikh turban etc.

I would not compare my experience to that of black people.

IncyWincyEyeroll · 18/07/2025 09:41

DyslexicPoster · 17/07/2025 23:07

I agree. But you can't hide being a traveler and still be a traveler can you? It's stopping living your heritage, culture and all that. Like being a Christian who doesn't practice the faith. Your not really a Christian any more. But I get what you mean in that you could try to hide it unlike your skin.

But even just saying that and thinking that is all kinds of wrong. Imagine if say travelers was all red heads and someone implied you could experience less discrimination if you just dyed your hair.

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Yes, I agree with you. Thanks.

The irony of it all is that the original article she was responding to (when she wrote the initial comments in the letter that others have posted above) was arguing that a widespread structural view of racism risks being too simplistic and minimising of other groups’ and people’s experience of racism, including the structural racism that impacts people who are Jewish or Irish traveller. And that we need to consider racism as a multifaceted complex thing in order to tackle it, which is very close to what some of her defenders are now arguing themselves. If she’d said that the article risks in turn minimising the prejudice and discrimination that black people have to navigate on a daily basis, I’d kind of agree with her (I didn’t read it that way but I can see it could be taken as that). But she didn’t, she chose instead to minimise and trivialise Jewish and Irish traveller experiences of racism. She clearly believes in a hereby of racism and that Jewish and Irish travellers “suffer less” than black people because (she thinks) they are always white or ‘appear’ white, and it’s not possible to be racist to someone who’s white, only prejudiced. I think she’s very clearly wrong on both counts, but if people are going to defend her I think it’s important to at least recognise what she’s saying rather than what people wish she might have said (I know you’re not doing so, I just wanted to respond to your comment cause I agreed)

BumblingBanana · 18/07/2025 09:37

orwellwasright2025 · 18/07/2025 08:05

I mean, the raped children were targeted because they were white by the rapists, and then they were ignored and branded prostitutes by those in authority because they were white - so yep, clear cut racism.

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I think it's important that we acknowledge that there are some individuals and groups of people who are racist and some structures of society that are institutionally racist.

There was undeniably a reluctance by authorities to pursue these groups of men for fear of being told they were being racist. It couldn't possibly be the case that these men were targeting young white women, because they were white. But it was. It was easier to avoid shame and vilification within their own culture.

What I call out is not just the men that did it but also the authorities that ignored it.

There was a prevailing view that these girls were easy and up for it and that young white western women lacked morals.

Yet, they were children. Whatever colour or background. They were children. This was a horrific injustice.

Yabberwok · 18/07/2025 09:19

AnonymousCatLady3 · 17/07/2025 14:27

She is right. She’s also stated that yes, those other groups do experience it, but it’s far more overt for people of colour / obviously other

Hasn’t stopped the party immediately accusing her of antisemitism though. Even when she quite clearly stated that Jews also experience racism. I won’t get started on Gaza, I won’t start on Gaza I won’t.

Much more overt...What's more overt than 6 million...that's million people being gassed to death for being Jewish?

EasternStandard · 18/07/2025 09:10

AlertCat · 18/07/2025 08:51

HRTFT but just heard the relevant comments, and I can’t dispute what she says, nor do I see the remarks as antisemitic. She’s right to point out that if you’re black, it’s immediately apparent: this is relevant for things like police stop-and-search, for example. People from Jewish or Traveller/Gypsy heritage are far less likely to experience the same kind of immediate racism unless they are presenting in ways which are associated with their ethnicity, like Orthodox Jews in traditional dress or (in my area at least) driving a van towing a caravan. I don’t understand what the problems are with pointing this out (I’ll come back later after work to read the other comments, though, so I might update my opinion!).

I think the comments from Jewish posters talking about the antisemitism they’ve faced should be read by everyone.

There’s a fair few saying yes they agree, but they surely have missed those posts.

And yes I know you’ve said you’ll come back to it, do more others that choose not to.

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 09:04

AlertCat · 18/07/2025 08:51

HRTFT but just heard the relevant comments, and I can’t dispute what she says, nor do I see the remarks as antisemitic. She’s right to point out that if you’re black, it’s immediately apparent: this is relevant for things like police stop-and-search, for example. People from Jewish or Traveller/Gypsy heritage are far less likely to experience the same kind of immediate racism unless they are presenting in ways which are associated with their ethnicity, like Orthodox Jews in traditional dress or (in my area at least) driving a van towing a caravan. I don’t understand what the problems are with pointing this out (I’ll come back later after work to read the other comments, though, so I might update my opinion!).

For you, it's as simple as kippahs and caravans; the ignorance is astounding. What about the psychological impact of having to hide your religious symbols, to avoid being oppressed - for your children to be targetted? It beggars belief that posters are minimising antisemitism but for an MP to do it, especially at such a dangerous time. Unreal.

SharonEllis · 18/07/2025 09:04

FighterPilotSwifts · 18/07/2025 08:50

Fair enough, being targeted with comments because you have red hair is not the same as racism.

Separately from that point, technically, prejudice against Jewish people and travellers is xenophobia not racism. Not that it makes any difference to how nasty it is and how it is experienced.

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Absolutely not. Xenophobia is prejudice against people from other countries. You could be xenophobic to an American Jew. But if you are prejudiced against a British Jew then you are just a plain old racist. If you think Jews can't be British then you are also a racist.

Samiloff · 18/07/2025 08:58

FighterPilotSwifts · 18/07/2025 08:50

Fair enough, being targeted with comments because you have red hair is not the same as racism.

Separately from that point, technically, prejudice against Jewish people and travellers is xenophobia not racism. Not that it makes any difference to how nasty it is and how it is experienced.

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Not sure about that. I don’t know about Travellers, but how is it xenophobia if it targets Jews whose families have lived in this country, or any country where antisemitism occurs, for hundreds of years? (And of course for the Nazis it was definitely, specifically, about race.)

AlertCat · 18/07/2025 08:51

HRTFT but just heard the relevant comments, and I can’t dispute what she says, nor do I see the remarks as antisemitic. She’s right to point out that if you’re black, it’s immediately apparent: this is relevant for things like police stop-and-search, for example. People from Jewish or Traveller/Gypsy heritage are far less likely to experience the same kind of immediate racism unless they are presenting in ways which are associated with their ethnicity, like Orthodox Jews in traditional dress or (in my area at least) driving a van towing a caravan. I don’t understand what the problems are with pointing this out (I’ll come back later after work to read the other comments, though, so I might update my opinion!).

FighterPilotSwifts · 18/07/2025 08:50

Samiloff · 18/07/2025 08:12

Yes, but that is not "all she has said".

What she originally said was that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people "undoubtedly experience prejudice" that is "similar to racism".
She wrote: "It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism."

So despite the way she’s trying to spin it now, she explicitly said originally that antisemitism was like prejudice against redheads, and is now saying she doesn’t regret having said that.

I assume she’s deliberately trying to get herself expelled from the Labour Party so she can be a martyr and then join Corbyn's new party.

Edited

Show quote history

Fair enough, being targeted with comments because you have red hair is not the same as racism.

Separately from that point, technically, prejudice against Jewish people and travellers is xenophobia not racism. Not that it makes any difference to how nasty it is and how it is experienced.

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 08:25

orwellwasright2025 · 18/07/2025 08:05

I mean, the raped children were targeted because they were white by the rapists, and then they were ignored and branded prostitutes by those in authority because they were white - so yep, clear cut racism.

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The poster would rather focus on socio-economic causes of racism, than lived experiences of ALL victims.

Samiloff · 18/07/2025 08:12

FighterPilotSwifts · 17/07/2025 14:37

All she has said, as far as I know, is that black people are instantly identified by others as black while people from other groups are not always instantly identified as coming from that group. Which I agree is true.
She hasn't said there's a hierarchy of racism it's just different. Black people cannot hide being black, for them racism is inescapable

Yes, but that is not "all she has said".

What she originally said was that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people "undoubtedly experience prejudice" that is "similar to racism".
She wrote: "It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism."

So despite the way she’s trying to spin it now, she explicitly said originally that antisemitism was like prejudice against redheads, and is now saying she doesn’t regret having said that.

I assume she’s deliberately trying to get herself expelled from the Labour Party so she can be a martyr and then join Corbyn's new party.

orwellwasright2025 · 18/07/2025 08:05

BumblingBanana · 18/07/2025 08:03

What oppression would you call it? What is a prevailing view of young women as white trash? Genuine question.

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I mean, the raped children were targeted because they were white by the rapists, and then they were ignored and branded prostitutes by those in authority because they were white - so yep, clear cut racism.

BumblingBanana · 18/07/2025 08:03

SnacksAndChaosThanks · 17/07/2025 23:21

I think it’s important that you learn to distinguish between racism and other forms of harm or oppression. White women absolutely experience sexism, and sometimes targeted violence - but that doesn’t make it racism. Racism is specifically about racial prejudice combined with systemic power. In the UK, Black and brown people disproportionately face this because of how institutions are set up and maintained.

What happened in Rotherham was horrific, but it wasn’t about systemic racism against white people - it was a failure of safeguarding, compounded by other complex social dynamics. Using that tragedy to suggest white people face racism the way people of colour do isn’t accurate or true.

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What oppression would you call it? What is a prevailing view of young women as white trash? Genuine question.

orwellwasright2025 · 18/07/2025 08:01

It's become rather a trend on social media for black people to state that they really really hate white people. And Jewish people are often easy to spot because many of them wear traditional Jewish attire, so they are targeted because they stand out.

So yes, all racism is bad, completely agree.