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AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

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HelenaWaiting · 19/07/2025 00:00

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

Nor does your experience come close to a Jewish person's experience, a Roma person's experience, a traveller's experience. You may agree with Diane Abbott, but your personal experience isn't actually proof that she is right.

HigherWaffle · 18/07/2025 23:59

I have always thought that Diane Abbott was massively racist towards white people. I have listened to her over the decades and she has the most appalling attitude towards white people. When I was at school in the 1970s the black girls would congregate together in the classroom after lunchtime - every day, without fail - and slag off white girls BIG TIME. They would proudly announce how their families had only brought them to the UK for the free education and, after they had finished it, they would be going back to the Caribbean... None of us (white girls) said a thing. We would just sit there, glancing at each other - if we dared - and feeling hugely uncomfortable... This occurred every lunch time. Was that NOT racism?

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:49

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 23:44

While it is true that some practicing Jewish individuals may display visible markers of their religious or cultural identity such as clothing, participation in communal institutions, or public observance of holidays it is important to exercise caution when making broad generalisations about the ease with which Jewish people can be identified.

Jewish identity is highly heterogeneous, encompassing a wide range of ethnic, religious, linguistic, and cultural backgrounds. Not all Jews are religiously observant, nor do they necessarily wear distinctive attire or possess traditionally Jewish sounding names. Many lead secular lives in which their Jewish identity is not externally visible. As such, the notion that Jewish individuals are generally “easy to identify” risks both oversimplification and the reinforcement of harmful stereotypes that have historically underpinned antisemitic ideologies.

A relevant historical example further complicates this assumption. During the Holocaust, Jews were frequently not easily identifiable to the general public. The imposition of the yellow Star of David by the Nazi regime was a deliberate strategy to forcibly render Jewish identity visible in order to facilitate exclusion, persecution, and ultimately genocide. The need for such a marker underscores the fact that, without it, many Jewish individuals could not be readily distinguished based on appearance or name alone.

This historical precedent illustrates the danger of assuming that identity is, or should be, visually legible.While I acknowledge that in certain contexts or with specific knowledge, one might infer that someone is Jewish based on cues that are subtle or cultural, this is not universally the case. In contemporary British society, unless individuals adopt specific religious dress, use recognisably Jewish names, or publicly express their identity, they are unlikely to be broadly identifiable as Jewish.

In regions of Europe with deeply entrenched histories of antisemitism such as those that experienced pogroms or the Holocaust there may be a greater cultural familiarity with Jewish identity, but this recognition is itself rooted in troubling histories of surveillance and targeting.

More broadly, I agree with the underlying point that concealing one’s identity in order to avoid discrimination is neither a straightforward nor a just solution. Diane’s argument that some Jewish individuals have the capacity to blend in in a way that is not possible for visibly racialised groups such as Black, brown, or even darker-skinned Southern Europeans does raise valid concerns about white privilege. However, to assume that this ability to pass is universally available to Jewish individuals ignores the internal diversity of the Jewish population and underestimates the extent to which antisemitism can operate independently of physical appearance.

A fundamental distinction often drawn between Jewish individuals and members of other racialised or ethnic groups lies in the visibility of identity. For many racial or ethnic minorities such as Black, South Asian, or East Asian individuals physical appearance alone frequently marks them as other within majority-white societies. Their visibility subjects them to forms of discrimination that are often immediate and unavoidable.

By contrast, Jewish identity is not inherently visible. While some Jewish individuals adopt religious clothing or participate in communal life in ways that may make their identity more externally recognisable, many do not. Jewishness, particularly among secular or non-observant Jews, is often invisible to the casual observer. This difference means that, in certain contexts, Jewish individuals may have the capacity to "pass" or withhold their identity as a protective strategy though this option is itself shaped by complex social, cultural, and historical factors, and should not be viewed as a straightforward privilege.

How curious that despite the ease with which they "blend in" they are still 12x more likely to experience a hate crime than a Muslim. Maybe Diane should run classes on "blending in". I feel genuinely quite sick at this conversation to be honest.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:45

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 23:38

I'd go further and say that how can anyone even suggest that it'd be an acceptable solution for people to hide who they are and in that way avoid racism. It's not if it's easy or not, it shouldn't be a thing.

It's 2025, and no one would (rightly so) suggest that gay people should hide who they are and "act hetero". Instead we are, correctly, going towards a society where being gay doesn't bat an eyelid.

DA's comments, and many in this thread too, make me flabbergasted about how ignorant many are. Still. In 2025.

It's 2025, and no one should have to hide who they are to avoid racism. Not even Jews. Because Jews do count.

Couldn't agree more. I swear to God my husband and I are laying in bed and my son came in excited saying, "look at me". I did and couldn't see anything different. Then he shared with us that he's figured out how to conceal his Kippah UNDER HIS BLOODY HAIR so no one can see it but he can still observe.

British should be bloody ashamed young Jewish people need to live like this, and Abott should be bloody ashamed for egging it on. I am so, so angry she has lost the right to speak about racism entirely as she's proven herself a racist.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 23:44

Oshio · 18/07/2025 22:31

True, but beyind looks, I think as you say Jewish people are much more easy to identify than people make out.

Practicing Jewish people often have signs typically on their clothing.

Many have highly identifiable names.

Many can be identified from their behaviour- for example Jewish student societies are targeted at universities, Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, synagogues.

They might be seen observing Jewish holidays or sending good wishes on social media for example.

Hiding your identity entirely to save yourself being attacked or discriminated against isn't as easy as Diane makes out and even if it were her point rests on the premises that people have an option to do so.

While it is true that some practicing Jewish individuals may display visible markers of their religious or cultural identity such as clothing, participation in communal institutions, or public observance of holidays it is important to exercise caution when making broad generalisations about the ease with which Jewish people can be identified.

Jewish identity is highly heterogeneous, encompassing a wide range of ethnic, religious, linguistic, and cultural backgrounds. Not all Jews are religiously observant, nor do they necessarily wear distinctive attire or possess traditionally Jewish sounding names. Many lead secular lives in which their Jewish identity is not externally visible. As such, the notion that Jewish individuals are generally “easy to identify” risks both oversimplification and the reinforcement of harmful stereotypes that have historically underpinned antisemitic ideologies.

A relevant historical example further complicates this assumption. During the Holocaust, Jews were frequently not easily identifiable to the general public. The imposition of the yellow Star of David by the Nazi regime was a deliberate strategy to forcibly render Jewish identity visible in order to facilitate exclusion, persecution, and ultimately genocide. The need for such a marker underscores the fact that, without it, many Jewish individuals could not be readily distinguished based on appearance or name alone.

This historical precedent illustrates the danger of assuming that identity is, or should be, visually legible.While I acknowledge that in certain contexts or with specific knowledge, one might infer that someone is Jewish based on cues that are subtle or cultural, this is not universally the case. In contemporary British society, unless individuals adopt specific religious dress, use recognisably Jewish names, or publicly express their identity, they are unlikely to be broadly identifiable as Jewish.

In regions of Europe with deeply entrenched histories of antisemitism such as those that experienced pogroms or the Holocaust there may be a greater cultural familiarity with Jewish identity, but this recognition is itself rooted in troubling histories of surveillance and targeting.

More broadly, I agree with the underlying point that concealing one’s identity in order to avoid discrimination is neither a straightforward nor a just solution. Diane’s argument that some Jewish individuals have the capacity to blend in in a way that is not possible for visibly racialised groups such as Black, brown, or even darker-skinned Southern Europeans does raise valid concerns about white privilege. However, to assume that this ability to pass is universally available to Jewish individuals ignores the internal diversity of the Jewish population and underestimates the extent to which antisemitism can operate independently of physical appearance.

A fundamental distinction often drawn between Jewish individuals and members of other racialised or ethnic groups lies in the visibility of identity. For many racial or ethnic minorities such as Black, South Asian, or East Asian individuals physical appearance alone frequently marks them as other within majority-white societies. Their visibility subjects them to forms of discrimination that are often immediate and unavoidable.

By contrast, Jewish identity is not inherently visible. While some Jewish individuals adopt religious clothing or participate in communal life in ways that may make their identity more externally recognisable, many do not. Jewishness, particularly among secular or non-observant Jews, is often invisible to the casual observer. This difference means that, in certain contexts, Jewish individuals may have the capacity to "pass" or withhold their identity as a protective strategy though this option is itself shaped by complex social, cultural, and historical factors, and should not be viewed as a straightforward privilege.

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 23:38

Oshio · 18/07/2025 22:31

True, but beyind looks, I think as you say Jewish people are much more easy to identify than people make out.

Practicing Jewish people often have signs typically on their clothing.

Many have highly identifiable names.

Many can be identified from their behaviour- for example Jewish student societies are targeted at universities, Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, synagogues.

They might be seen observing Jewish holidays or sending good wishes on social media for example.

Hiding your identity entirely to save yourself being attacked or discriminated against isn't as easy as Diane makes out and even if it were her point rests on the premises that people have an option to do so.

I'd go further and say that how can anyone even suggest that it'd be an acceptable solution for people to hide who they are and in that way avoid racism. It's not if it's easy or not, it shouldn't be a thing.

It's 2025, and no one would (rightly so) suggest that gay people should hide who they are and "act hetero". Instead we are, correctly, going towards a society where being gay doesn't bat an eyelid.

DA's comments, and many in this thread too, make me flabbergasted about how ignorant many are. Still. In 2025.

It's 2025, and no one should have to hide who they are to avoid racism. Not even Jews. Because Jews do count.

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 23:21

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 21:52

Out curiosity - what do mean being a jew of colour?

I mean clearly non-white (under apartheid in SA, I'd be "coloured"), and also with Jewish heritage. Which is exactly what any DNA test says about me too. Clearer?

Oshio · 18/07/2025 22:31

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 22:13

I believe people often underestimate the extent to which appearance shapes how others perceive and treat you. For instance, I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry; however, I have never experienced direct antisemitism, likely because I do not have identifiable markers typically associated with Jewish identity—such as a recognisably Jewish surname or traditional clothing. In contrast, I have faced prejudice based on my appearance, specifically for looking mixed race. That aspect of my identity is visible and cannot be concealed. It is clear from my appearance that I do not look fully European or traditionally English.

True, but beyind looks, I think as you say Jewish people are much more easy to identify than people make out.

Practicing Jewish people often have signs typically on their clothing.

Many have highly identifiable names.

Many can be identified from their behaviour- for example Jewish student societies are targeted at universities, Jewish schools, Jewish businesses, synagogues.

They might be seen observing Jewish holidays or sending good wishes on social media for example.

Hiding your identity entirely to save yourself being attacked or discriminated against isn't as easy as Diane makes out and even if it were her point rests on the premises that people have an option to do so.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 22:24

NicolaCasanova · 18/07/2025 22:04

I agree with Diane Abbott.

I lived in a southern European country where many of the indigenous population has bronzed white skin and blue and green eyes are relatively rare. As a paler white person born around 800km. to the north, in a neighbouring country with the same most practised religion and many similar customs, cultural practices, often my skin, hair and eye colour were the ONLY thing people talked about, and before saying hello I was frequently met with, « where on earth are you from? » and all it could make me think was how it might possibly be for people who genuinely look different.

I live in Brixton in London and something like 40% of the population are not white. In Diane Abbots constituency it's more like 50%

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 22:13

I believe people often underestimate the extent to which appearance shapes how others perceive and treat you. For instance, I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry; however, I have never experienced direct antisemitism, likely because I do not have identifiable markers typically associated with Jewish identity—such as a recognisably Jewish surname or traditional clothing. In contrast, I have faced prejudice based on my appearance, specifically for looking mixed race. That aspect of my identity is visible and cannot be concealed. It is clear from my appearance that I do not look fully European or traditionally English.

NicolaCasanova · 18/07/2025 22:04

I agree with Diane Abbott.

I lived in a southern European country where many of the indigenous population has bronzed white skin and blue and green eyes are relatively rare. As a paler white person born around 800km. to the north, in a neighbouring country with the same most practised religion and many similar customs, cultural practices, often my skin, hair and eye colour were the ONLY thing people talked about, and before saying hello I was frequently met with, « where on earth are you from? » and all it could make me think was how it might possibly be for people who genuinely look different.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 22:03

EasternStandard · 18/07/2025 21:51

Yes agree

I think Jewish people confuse. Antisemitism sometimes differs in that Jews can be perceived as both "privileged" and "other" simultaneously, and in some contexts, white-passing Jews may not face the same immediate forms of exclusion that visibly racialised groups do. However, historically In many societies, antisemitism has had both structural and systemic components, such as:

  • Historical legal discrimination: Jews were excluded from owning land, entering certain professions, or accessing education in many countries.
  • Social and institutional exclusion: Jewish communities have been scapegoated, segregated, and expelled, with long-standing myths and stereotypes shaping public policy and opinion.
  • State-sponsored violence: Pogroms, the Holocaust, and other acts of mass violence were facilitated by institutions, laws, and governments.
  • Cultural narratives and conspiracy theories: Persistent antisemitic tropes—like claims of Jewish control over finance, media, or global affairs—still influence political rhetoric and public discourse.
  • Disparities in safety and representation: Jewish schools, synagogues, and community centres often require high levels of security due to persistent threats of violence.
Simonjt · 18/07/2025 21:52

She’s correct that a person of colour cannot hide their ethnicity, but forgets that a lot of Jewish people aren’t white.

So while some may not specifically just face racism due to being Jewish, but due to being non-white. They may also hear more antisemitism because people don’t realise they are Jewish. My husband is white skinned, blue eyed and blonde, he’s Jewish, he did have a Jewish surname but as its also a fairly common scandi name it isn’t obvious. He himself hasn’t experienced direct antisemitism due to his appearance, however he has heard a lot if antisemitism due to people not realising he is Jewish. He is a very small minority who is able to fly under the radar as he doesn’t meet a racists view of wjat a Jewish person looks like.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 21:52

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 20:30

When you say a person of colour? Do you mean black or referring to being a Middle Eastern Jew?

Out curiosity - what do mean being a jew of colour?

EasternStandard · 18/07/2025 21:51

HelenaWaiting · 18/07/2025 21:48

I think most people will concede that the Holocaust was pretty fucking structural, institutional and systemic. Such nonsense being written about which groups can hide their ethnicity - if the state wants to persecute you, they'll make damn sure you can't hide.

Yes agree

HelenaWaiting · 18/07/2025 21:48

HRTQueen · 18/07/2025 13:30

I think what is being spoken about is Jewish people being the most religiously targeted group

That doesn't take into account structural, institutional and systemic racism

Both are terrible both cause suffering and pain

But it is different that is the point being made

I think most people will concede that the Holocaust was pretty fucking structural, institutional and systemic. Such nonsense being written about which groups can hide their ethnicity - if the state wants to persecute you, they'll make damn sure you can't hide.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 21:42

HelenaWaiting · 18/07/2025 21:40

I don't know why you're having a go at me. I wasn't the one doing the grilling. I was defending you. I'm sorry if that offended you.

Sorry I was talking to the person grilling me! I can see it might have looked otherwise, my bad

HelenaWaiting · 18/07/2025 21:40

Oshio · 18/07/2025 19:08

I initially didn't bother responding to this as it seemed like pointless grilling. As I said, I am not Jewish, my son is. I used the wrong word, because I am not Jewish.

What I meant was, he follows the rules of not eating meat and dairy within a few hours of one another.

He isn't actually kosher because he vant practically be. The rest of the family are not Jewish, and he shares a kitchen at university halls. Oh, and there's absolutely no kosher food options available to him at university.

The point is that due to religious observation he does NOT eat dairy if he's had meat. Ever!!!!

I don't know why you're having a go at me. I wasn't the one doing the grilling. I was defending you. I'm sorry if that offended you.

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 20:45

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 20:30

When you say a person of colour? Do you mean black or referring to being a Middle Eastern Jew?

Neither.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 20:30

neveragainforreal · 18/07/2025 13:49

Are you a Jewish black person?

As a Jewish person of colour, my experience is that I have encountered more racism for being Jewish than being a person of colour. I'm not religious but ethnically Jewish, which btw, year 2025, is something many still fail to understand the concept of.

My name is a giveaway, btw. I don't even have to meet someone in person to encounter racism.

At work, we are a group of Jews supporting each other more than ever due to an increase in antisemitism even in the workplace. That's reality, but David Baddiel is right - "Jews don't count".

When you say a person of colour? Do you mean black or referring to being a Middle Eastern Jew?

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 20:27

Hotflushesandchilblains · 18/07/2025 20:23

I have been mulling this thread over since yesterday and trying to work out what pisses me off about Diane Abbott. Because I can see the point of what she is saying - that discrimination about things you cant disguise or hide impacts in a different way.

And as PPs have commented on - certain groups of people, specifically BAME groups - face far more impact from the impact of the discrimination.

Unfortunately when I listen to DA I get the sense that she is dismissive or downplaying of difficulties in communities other than hers. I am not sure that is always what she is saying, but if she doesnt mean it, she is a poor communicator.

As I said yesterday, I lost respect for her when she was the education secretary and would not answer questions about why she sent her son to a public school. Not even annoyed at her for doing that - but just refusing to discuss it was arrogant and entitled.

She's also said racially divisive things during her time in Parliament. The woman has always been a loose cannon.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 20:23

Regarding the Traveller community, I do not believe that people hold greater racist or prejudiced attitudes toward Travellers compared to other ethnic groups. Instead, it seems that society perceives it as more socially acceptable to mistreat Travellers, which perpetuates their poor treatment.

Hotflushesandchilblains · 18/07/2025 20:23

I have been mulling this thread over since yesterday and trying to work out what pisses me off about Diane Abbott. Because I can see the point of what she is saying - that discrimination about things you cant disguise or hide impacts in a different way.

And as PPs have commented on - certain groups of people, specifically BAME groups - face far more impact from the impact of the discrimination.

Unfortunately when I listen to DA I get the sense that she is dismissive or downplaying of difficulties in communities other than hers. I am not sure that is always what she is saying, but if she doesnt mean it, she is a poor communicator.

As I said yesterday, I lost respect for her when she was the education secretary and would not answer questions about why she sent her son to a public school. Not even annoyed at her for doing that - but just refusing to discuss it was arrogant and entitled.

Lavenderflower · 18/07/2025 20:20

I have not reviewed all the comments in this discussion, but I concur with Diane Abbott’s perspective that racism and prejudice manifest in diverse forms. This is not a contest of oppression but rather an acknowledgment that different groups encounter distinct types of discrimination. For instance, individuals who are Black and Brown possess differing phenotypic traits, while Irish individuals are generally perceived as white, and some Jewish individuals may be white-passing. Furthermore, even within Black and Brown communities, the nature of racial experiences diverges significantly. Drawing direct comparisons between the Jewish experience and the Black experience may be unproductive.