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AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
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16
SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 08:56

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 08:45

The idea that a Black person won’t stand out in a diverse area like London deeply misunderstands how racism and visibility operate. It assumes racism is only about numerical minority status, when in reality it’s also about power, stereotypes, and how people are socially positioned.

Black people can and do face racism in areas where they are not a small minority whether that’s through over-policing, unequal access to opportunities, everyday microaggressions, or being treated as inherently suspect. Simply being surrounded by other Black people doesn’t erase centuries of structural racism or how that shapes people’s perceptions and experiences.

And visibility doesn’t just mean “standing out visually in a crowd. It also means being racialised having your identity constantly marked and politicised in ways that white people aren’t. That happens regardless of how diverse a postcode is.
So no, Oshio’s argument isn’t “just addressing Diane’s point.” It’s relying on a superficial reading of visibility and using diversity to downplay the realities of anti-Black racism.

Oh please. I know about structural racism. I never referred to standing out in in the whole of London. You seem to have consumed a lot of abstract theory but perhaps are less sensitive to reality and complexity. There are loads of contexts in which a black person doesn't 'stand out'. This conversation does reveal some of the limits of Abbott's theory of racism based purely on 'visibility'.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 08:48

Abbott has downplayed racism, period. In her efforts to present prejudice as being tiered, she's diluted the whole concept.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 08:45

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 07:36

Oshio is not minimising the experience or erasing the realities of black people. In fact she is addressing Diane's point on Diane's terms. If 'visibility' is the key factor then it stands to reason that a black person won't stand out in an area where they are not a small minority. You are muddling up different contexts which absolutely have changed over time. Especially in London.

The idea that a Black person won’t stand out in a diverse area like London deeply misunderstands how racism and visibility operate. It assumes racism is only about numerical minority status, when in reality it’s also about power, stereotypes, and how people are socially positioned.

Black people can and do face racism in areas where they are not a small minority whether that’s through over-policing, unequal access to opportunities, everyday microaggressions, or being treated as inherently suspect. Simply being surrounded by other Black people doesn’t erase centuries of structural racism or how that shapes people’s perceptions and experiences.

And visibility doesn’t just mean “standing out visually in a crowd. It also means being racialised having your identity constantly marked and politicised in ways that white people aren’t. That happens regardless of how diverse a postcode is.
So no, Oshio’s argument isn’t “just addressing Diane’s point.” It’s relying on a superficial reading of visibility and using diversity to downplay the realities of anti-Black racism.

EasternStandard · 19/07/2025 08:41

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

Its a good idea to read posts from Jewish pp so you can understand their experiences.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 08:19

@5MT2 I agree with one highlighting social injustice, when it impacts on them. What I disagree with is stirring the pot. There are some bad faith actors, as well as good ones in the fight for equality.

5MT2 · 19/07/2025 08:13

This thread and conversation are quite sad. Having read the full thread and followed the story, my opinion is that the growing problem in our society and globally is communalism.

The term racism is extremely loaded and means different things to different people based on their experiences and understanding of history. This can make it difficult for people to have civil conversations because it is hard for many to empathise with others if they feel their own pain and suffering are being minimised.

We know scientifically that the concept of race is a social construct with terrifying implications for the victims within the designated groups singled out for designation as inferior. A lot of it stems from imperial history with its consequences for how society was shaped and the beliefs that have been baked into our culture. It must be very frustrating when you are trying to correct historical wrongs to have your cause conflated into other historical wrongs that stops you from making any progress in gaining redress for the injustice you are trying to draw attention to.

In recent times our society has seen an increase in communalism which is harmful for social cohesion and mutual understanding. In some cases the retreat into communalism is conducted by racists, and in other cases as a defence against racism. I think it is something that we need to pay attention to and guide against engaging in, as well as try to understand why it is happening.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 07:59

Bumble6 · 19/07/2025 07:47

It is so sad that there are so many posters on mumsnet who agree with Dianne Abbott, that they also minimise the racism aimed at jewish people, travellers and others by calling it 'prejudice' and comparing it to what red head might face instead. It isn't just on this thread but many others on mumsnet.
Dianne Abbott also apparently lied by apologising the first time when she obviously thinks what she wrote was correct.

I find her staggering in her arrogance. As has been seen on the thread, she's meant to garner respect because of her achievements as a woman of colour. Why? All that does is keep the divide going. One should be recognised, despite their ethnicity, not because of it. Discrimination and oppression thrives on that division. Ignorance/prejudice makes a living from it.

Bumble6 · 19/07/2025 07:47

It is so sad that there are so many posters on mumsnet who agree with Dianne Abbott, that they also minimise the racism aimed at jewish people, travellers and others by calling it 'prejudice' and comparing it to what red head might face instead. It isn't just on this thread but many others on mumsnet.
Dianne Abbott also apparently lied by apologising the first time when she obviously thinks what she wrote was correct.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 07:41

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:49

How curious that despite the ease with which they "blend in" they are still 12x more likely to experience a hate crime than a Muslim. Maybe Diane should run classes on "blending in". I feel genuinely quite sick at this conversation to be honest.

I agree. I'm so sorry your son is even having to think about hiding his identity. He should be growing up both comfortable with it and proud. The lack of empathy for Jewish people around these discussions is stark and depressing.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 07:36

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:10

This is an unhelpful comment. I appreciate that you may be frustrated with Diane Abbott, but there’s no need to minimise the lived experience of Black people in the process. The idea that “Black people aren’t a surprise” anymore or that they “don’t get stared at” dismisses the reality many still face being visibly different in predominantly white spaces does continue to draw attention, whether through stares, surveillance, or unconscious bias.

Even in diverse areas, racism and the experience of being visibly marked as “other” have not simply disappeared with time. Suggesting otherwise undermines the broader point Diane was trying to make about visibility and vulnerability. You can disagree with her without erasing the realities of racialised communities today.

Oshio is not minimising the experience or erasing the realities of black people. In fact she is addressing Diane's point on Diane's terms. If 'visibility' is the key factor then it stands to reason that a black person won't stand out in an area where they are not a small minority. You are muddling up different contexts which absolutely have changed over time. Especially in London.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 07:28

Oshio · 18/07/2025 23:45

Couldn't agree more. I swear to God my husband and I are laying in bed and my son came in excited saying, "look at me". I did and couldn't see anything different. Then he shared with us that he's figured out how to conceal his Kippah UNDER HIS BLOODY HAIR so no one can see it but he can still observe.

British should be bloody ashamed young Jewish people need to live like this, and Abott should be bloody ashamed for egging it on. I am so, so angry she has lost the right to speak about racism entirely as she's proven herself a racist.

That brought a tear to my eye x

Reugny · 19/07/2025 06:08

@MrsCornelius Or the original article which it was in reply to.

This original article that pointed out racism in British society is complex.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 05:44

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/07/2025 00:26

She didn't explain it well, what she means is that for people who can't 'pass' as white there is no break from racism therefore it's obviously worse and more frequent

This is nonsense though. Just because someone may be always visible doesn't mean they are constantly the subject of racism.

Samiloff · 19/07/2025 03:58

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

So you agree with her likening antisemitism to prejudice against redheads. Wow.

MrsCornelius · 19/07/2025 03:30

The issue for me is that DA said Jews do not experience racism, and implicitly equated the holocaust with bullying of redheads.
No need for a long analysis. What she said is clearly not ok.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott
MrsCornelius · 19/07/2025 03:25

💯 agree.
Seems a lot of people have never read her letter 🙄

Colinfromaccounts · 19/07/2025 01:49

I think the level of racism she has experienced as a black woman, and the first black female MP at that, shouldn’t be underestimated. But unfortunately she was somewhat dim to bring this up again.

Oshio · 19/07/2025 01:37

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 01:17

I think suggesting that Hackney’s diversity somehow means Black people no longer face racism or don’t get stared at is deeply problematic. That’s like saying antisemitism doesn’t exist in areas with large Jewish communities, or that Travellers don’t face discrimination if there are many of them in one place. We know that’s not how racism works.

The presence of a Black population even a significant one doesn’t magically erase structural racism, unconscious bias, or the daily experience of being visibly marked as “other.” It’s entirely possible to live in a diverse area and still face racial profiling, exclusion, or microaggressions. Diversity doesn’t equal safety or acceptance.

I’m really sorry to hear what your child has experienced that kind of hatred is horrifying and absolutely unacceptable. No one should have to hide who they are to feel safe, and it’s important that we name and take seriously the racism and antisemitism that Jewish people face, both historically and today. Your anger and pain are entirely valid.

That said, I don’t think recognising the specific dynamics of anti-Black racism means denying or downplaying the suffering of others. What Diane Abbott was trying to point out however imperfectly was that visibility plays a role in how racism functions. Black people are often immediately marked out because of their skin, in ways that can’t be concealed, even temporarily. That doesn't mean other groups aren’t also targeted or don’t face brutal discrimination, but rather that the mechanisms of that discrimination can differ.

The danger is when this turns into a contest of whose pain “counts more.” I agree with you: racism affects many communities in different, painful, and very real ways. But in challenging one oversimplification, we need to be careful not to fall into another by minimising the lived realities of Black people, as if their experiences of visibility and racism are somehow overstated or irrelevant today. We need to hold space for all of it.

What on earth are you on about. Why would Black and Asian people be stared at in Hackney? They are not an unusual sight, they are most people. That doesn't suggest in any way, shape or form that they do not experience racism.

Similarly, Jewish people do not get stared at in Golders Green, they are not an unusual sight, they are most people. That does not mean they do not experience racism either.

Please stop trying to turn the tables or put words in people's mouths.

What you're trying to do repeatedly is to justify Diane's disgusting minimisation of the racism experienced by groups. Her exact words were:

“Irish, Jewish and Traveller people ‘undoubtedly experience prejudice,’ which is ‘similar to racism.’ … ‘many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice - but they are not all their lives subject to racism.’”

These justifications are clearly not accurate. Jewish people measurably experience more hate crimes than Black people do. That's data, not opinion. So those targeting them, clearly have no issue seeking them out.

I have a friend with a red haired child. He doesn't need to wear a hat to hide his hair for fear of being attacked by people who just hate red heads. I assure you when someone shouted "Jew C*nt" at my child on a London bus it wasn't "similar to racism", it was racism.

What an utterly ridiculous comment Abott made and how ludicrous to hear people tripping over themselves to excuse it as she doubles down.

So she's wrong, you're wrong and please stop trying to accuse others of that which you yourself are doing. You need to give your head a huge wobble.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 01:17

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:32

Pointing out that Hackney is a diverse area where less than half the population is white isn't “minimising” racism.

The problem here is that Diane Abbott (and some posters defending her) are doing exactly what you’re accusing me of: minimising the racism faced by other groups - like Jews and Travellers - by ranking suffering and deciding whose experience “counts.”

My child has been spat at and has to hide his identity to be safe. He's reported multiple hate crimes and he's not even 22 yet.

We can recognise different forms of racism without pretending one group has the monopoly on pain or visibility and Diane is deeply wrong for attempting that.

I think suggesting that Hackney’s diversity somehow means Black people no longer face racism or don’t get stared at is deeply problematic. That’s like saying antisemitism doesn’t exist in areas with large Jewish communities, or that Travellers don’t face discrimination if there are many of them in one place. We know that’s not how racism works.

The presence of a Black population even a significant one doesn’t magically erase structural racism, unconscious bias, or the daily experience of being visibly marked as “other.” It’s entirely possible to live in a diverse area and still face racial profiling, exclusion, or microaggressions. Diversity doesn’t equal safety or acceptance.

I’m really sorry to hear what your child has experienced that kind of hatred is horrifying and absolutely unacceptable. No one should have to hide who they are to feel safe, and it’s important that we name and take seriously the racism and antisemitism that Jewish people face, both historically and today. Your anger and pain are entirely valid.

That said, I don’t think recognising the specific dynamics of anti-Black racism means denying or downplaying the suffering of others. What Diane Abbott was trying to point out however imperfectly was that visibility plays a role in how racism functions. Black people are often immediately marked out because of their skin, in ways that can’t be concealed, even temporarily. That doesn't mean other groups aren’t also targeted or don’t face brutal discrimination, but rather that the mechanisms of that discrimination can differ.

The danger is when this turns into a contest of whose pain “counts more.” I agree with you: racism affects many communities in different, painful, and very real ways. But in challenging one oversimplification, we need to be careful not to fall into another by minimising the lived realities of Black people, as if their experiences of visibility and racism are somehow overstated or irrelevant today. We need to hold space for all of it.

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:32

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:10

This is an unhelpful comment. I appreciate that you may be frustrated with Diane Abbott, but there’s no need to minimise the lived experience of Black people in the process. The idea that “Black people aren’t a surprise” anymore or that they “don’t get stared at” dismisses the reality many still face being visibly different in predominantly white spaces does continue to draw attention, whether through stares, surveillance, or unconscious bias.

Even in diverse areas, racism and the experience of being visibly marked as “other” have not simply disappeared with time. Suggesting otherwise undermines the broader point Diane was trying to make about visibility and vulnerability. You can disagree with her without erasing the realities of racialised communities today.

Pointing out that Hackney is a diverse area where less than half the population is white isn't “minimising” racism.

The problem here is that Diane Abbott (and some posters defending her) are doing exactly what you’re accusing me of: minimising the racism faced by other groups - like Jews and Travellers - by ranking suffering and deciding whose experience “counts.”

My child has been spat at and has to hide his identity to be safe. He's reported multiple hate crimes and he's not even 22 yet.

We can recognise different forms of racism without pretending one group has the monopoly on pain or visibility and Diane is deeply wrong for attempting that.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/07/2025 00:26

She didn't explain it well, what she means is that for people who can't 'pass' as white there is no break from racism therefore it's obviously worse and more frequent

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:10

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:03

So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970.

This is an unhelpful comment. I appreciate that you may be frustrated with Diane Abbott, but there’s no need to minimise the lived experience of Black people in the process. The idea that “Black people aren’t a surprise” anymore or that they “don’t get stared at” dismisses the reality many still face being visibly different in predominantly white spaces does continue to draw attention, whether through stares, surveillance, or unconscious bias.

Even in diverse areas, racism and the experience of being visibly marked as “other” have not simply disappeared with time. Suggesting otherwise undermines the broader point Diane was trying to make about visibility and vulnerability. You can disagree with her without erasing the realities of racialised communities today.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:05

HigherWaffle · 18/07/2025 23:59

I have always thought that Diane Abbott was massively racist towards white people. I have listened to her over the decades and she has the most appalling attitude towards white people. When I was at school in the 1970s the black girls would congregate together in the classroom after lunchtime - every day, without fail - and slag off white girls BIG TIME. They would proudly announce how their families had only brought them to the UK for the free education and, after they had finished it, they would be going back to the Caribbean... None of us (white girls) said a thing. We would just sit there, glancing at each other - if we dared - and feeling hugely uncomfortable... This occurred every lunch time. Was that NOT racism?

This comment doesn't actually make sense.

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 00:04

HelenaWaiting · 19/07/2025 00:00

Nor does your experience come close to a Jewish person's experience, a Roma person's experience, a traveller's experience. You may agree with Diane Abbott, but your personal experience isn't actually proof that she is right.

But realistically every person experience is going to be different. Both my Irish and Jewish relatives would agree with Diane whereas lots of people disagree. We all have different experiences. Hence, it not always helpful to compare.

Oshio · 19/07/2025 00:03

GreenSedan · 18/07/2025 23:55

I haven't RTFT but I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.

As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space. What I've experienced doesn't even come close to their experience.

So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970.