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AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Seagullsandsausagerolls · 19/07/2025 13:00

Can't imagine Jewish people in her constituency would have much confidence or trust in her as an MP.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/07/2025 13:00

Oshio · 19/07/2025 12:00

It's odd that you've spent several posts now attacking me for a reply I made to a post without reading the post I replied to.

Let's recap:

Poster:
"I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space"

My reply:
"So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970"

So the context and my point should be obvious. Black and Asian people are simply not a minority in Hackney.

The poster is applying her minimisation of the bigotry others experience based on the fact that seemingly she personally happens to live in a place where seeing Black and Asian people isn't something they do all day every day.

As for your statement "as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles" thanks for clearing that up, reading between the lines I think Diane feels the same.

What you're doing here today isn't fighting your own battle - it's doing what you've accused everyone else of doing and trying to minimise other people's experiences to prioritise your own.

There’s an underlying assumption that minority groups are in competition, not common cause. That it’s “us vs. them”, not “all of us against racism.” I'm sorry to say I was quite naive in not seeing this before.

I spent decades of my life aggressively standing against racism. I joined protests, i voted accordingly, I advocated, I spoke up when I saw unfairness and I frankly am shocked to see the sentiment not returned.

I am white. Pretty much anyway. Brown mum, but I came out white. But one thing I've never thought about any injustice is, “they can fight their own battles.”

But from what ive garnered from listening to the Jewish community is that they now understand that hate crime, bigotry, discrimination and harassment against them - and seemingly only them - apparently doesnt warrant collective support from our countrys most vocal so-called and verbose racism theorists.

I’m really sorry to say I completely agree with your last paragraph.
The hypocrisy and double standard is staggering.
I did feel sympathy for DA because of the racism and misogyny she has been subjected to. I’m incredibly disappointed that it appears she can only speak up against injustice when it occurs to her own community.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 12:58

nomas · 19/07/2025 12:29

I’m quoting the letter. ‘Abbott wrote that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people “undoubtedly experience prejudice”. “This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable,” she said.’

What she went to to say is the crucial bit and it follows a well worn path when it comes to anti racists minimising hatred towrads Jewish people.

'But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus.
“In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.”

To say they are not all their lives subject to racism is blatantly untrue.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 12:54

Tomiwa Owolade today

Two years ago I wrote a column for The Observer. It was, I thought then, one of the more uncontroversial columns I have written in my career. It had two general points. The first is that Jews can be victims of racism; the second is that any definition of racism that excludes them is worthless and sinister.
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Who could possibly object to these points? They are almost so basic as to be not even w8orth expressing. The middle of the twentieth century was indelibly marked by one of the most gruesome acts of inhumanity ever perpetrated: the annihilation of European Jewry. And the people who committed this crime – the Nazis and the regimes who collaborated with them – saw Jews not simply as a religious group. They were demonised as a race; atheist Jews were also slaughtered in the gas chambers.
I ask who could object to such a point, but what I really mean is which figure would stoop so low to do so. There are cranks in academia and the media, of course, who may reiterate the nonsense argument that only black and brown people could be victims of racism. But I was astonished, a week after I wrote my column, to learn that a member of Parliament would object to the main points I made. And not just any member of Parliament, but someone as experienced and well-respected as Diane Abbott.
Jews can experience prejudice like “redheads”, she wrote in a letter, but they can’t experience racism. She apologised soon after and was suspended from the Labour Party. But it seems her apology meant nothing in the end, and she has just been suspended again by the Labour Party. The reason? According to Abbott, in a recent interview with the BBC’s James Naughtie, she doesn’t regret her letter from 2023. She added that: “Clearly, there must be a difference between racism which is about colour and other types of racism, because you can see a Traveller or a Jewish person walking down the street, you don’t know.”
That Jews cannot be recognised simply by looking at them would be news to those who are verbally and physically abused on the streets.
But there’s something else going on here that needs to be unpacked: it is the notion of a hierarchy of racism. In her original letter to The Observer, Abbott argued that Jews were not put at the back of the bus in segregationist America. Nor were they oppressed in apartheid South Africa. That they were oppressed and victimised in other ways is beside the point; Jews are white, according to this logic, so they can evade the prejudice against black and brown people
have no personal animosity towards Abbott. I sympathise with the racist and misogynistic abuse she has suffered. And I thought her recent stand against assisted dying was brave and principled. More than anything else, I feel sad that someone so ostensibly committed to the cause of anti-racism can embarrass herself in this way. This doesn’t mean I have changed my mind on the article I wrote. In fact I stand by it even more fiercely than before. The piece was written 6 months before October 7, the greatest massacre of Jews since the Second World War, and since then the subsequent orgy of anti-Semitic abuse and violence throughout the world has reinforced the necessity of speaking out against anti-Jewish racism. And it has made it even more important to call out people like Abbott who spread untruths about what constitutes racism.

OpheliaWasntMad · 19/07/2025 12:51

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 11:18

I think it fine not to understand my point - we can all agree to disagree. I think discourse shows and demonstrates why they will never be unity or alliances.

I think you need to listen to the experiences of Jewish people more carefully. You’re not really listening .

EasternStandard · 19/07/2025 12:34

nomas · 19/07/2025 12:29

I’m quoting the letter. ‘Abbott wrote that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people “undoubtedly experience prejudice”. “This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable,” she said.’

I think Jewish people should determine the words used. Typically it’s antisemitism and / or persecution.

nomas · 19/07/2025 12:30

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 12:25

No it wasn’t. Nobody should spit on police officers. It’s absolutely vile behaviour.

Is it just individual black men you call out for criticism? Do you not see why that’s problematic?

nomas · 19/07/2025 12:29

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 12:28

Not originally she didn’t. Go back further. It’s available online. She originally said they don’t experience racism. In Diane Abbot’s mind only black people can experience racism. It’s that simple.

I’m quoting the letter. ‘Abbott wrote that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people “undoubtedly experience prejudice”. “This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable,” she said.’

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 12:28

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:55

Whilst I disagree with her that they can’t experience racism, she did say they experience prejudice similar to racism.

Not originally she didn’t. Go back further. It’s available online. She originally said they don’t experience racism. In Diane Abbot’s mind only black people can experience racism. It’s that simple.

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 12:25

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:54

Was that really necessary?

No it wasn’t. Nobody should spit on police officers. It’s absolutely vile behaviour.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 12:15

ForWittyTealOP · 19/07/2025 12:14

Actually I think it's important to add that Abbott can't now claim to represent Travellers (Hackney has one of the UK's largest Traveller populations) or Irish people (who have traditionally made their home in Hackney) in her constituency. How can she, when she refuses to acknowledge the racism and hostility they face? She is evidently not doing her job as an MP. I wouldn't trust her to speak up for me or deal with any issues I have as a Jewish person, whether or not they are related to my ethnicity. Why would anybody else?

Agree.

ForWittyTealOP · 19/07/2025 12:14

Actually I think it's important to add that Abbott can't now claim to represent Travellers (Hackney has one of the UK's largest Traveller populations) or Irish people (who have traditionally made their home in Hackney) in her constituency. How can she, when she refuses to acknowledge the racism and hostility they face? She is evidently not doing her job as an MP. I wouldn't trust her to speak up for me or deal with any issues I have as a Jewish person, whether or not they are related to my ethnicity. Why would anybody else?

Oshio · 19/07/2025 12:14

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 12:08

You summarise this conversation and the wider issue brilliantly. I too have been heavily inolved in anti racist action for 40 or more years. I naively thought antisemitism only remained on the fringes of the far right. Then the Corbyn era exposed that it had never gone away and was in fact flourishing on the left. The idea of common cause that was part of a left wing identity also fell apart. Thats when I educated myself about antisemitism.

I'm still horrified to see someone say Jewish people should fight their own battles.

I hope some people reading this will realise how important it is now to make common cause with Jewish people. Don't turn away.

The thing is, people either fight injustice for everyone, or they only fight injustice for their own group.

The antisemitism crisis has shone a light on a lot of celebrated pioneers acclaimed widely as justice warriors.

Jewish people have historically stood with other marginalised groups, including during the civil rights movement as you said.

That solidarity is a two-way street — if we only stand for ourselves, we all lose.

andgoodnessknows · 19/07/2025 12:09

Are people seriously saying they can’t immediately tell the ethnicity of these people at first sight (in Diane Abbott’s constituency no less), the same as you could by someone’s skin colour? What she said was awful, as are the people on here pretending she’s got a point. Of course she was wrong.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott
SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 12:08

Oshio · 19/07/2025 12:00

It's odd that you've spent several posts now attacking me for a reply I made to a post without reading the post I replied to.

Let's recap:

Poster:
"I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space"

My reply:
"So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970"

So the context and my point should be obvious. Black and Asian people are simply not a minority in Hackney.

The poster is applying her minimisation of the bigotry others experience based on the fact that seemingly she personally happens to live in a place where seeing Black and Asian people isn't something they do all day every day.

As for your statement "as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles" thanks for clearing that up, reading between the lines I think Diane feels the same.

What you're doing here today isn't fighting your own battle - it's doing what you've accused everyone else of doing and trying to minimise other people's experiences to prioritise your own.

There’s an underlying assumption that minority groups are in competition, not common cause. That it’s “us vs. them”, not “all of us against racism.” I'm sorry to say I was quite naive in not seeing this before.

I spent decades of my life aggressively standing against racism. I joined protests, i voted accordingly, I advocated, I spoke up when I saw unfairness and I frankly am shocked to see the sentiment not returned.

I am white. Pretty much anyway. Brown mum, but I came out white. But one thing I've never thought about any injustice is, “they can fight their own battles.”

But from what ive garnered from listening to the Jewish community is that they now understand that hate crime, bigotry, discrimination and harassment against them - and seemingly only them - apparently doesnt warrant collective support from our countrys most vocal so-called and verbose racism theorists.

You summarise this conversation and the wider issue brilliantly. I too have been heavily inolved in anti racist action for 40 or more years. I naively thought antisemitism only remained on the fringes of the far right. Then the Corbyn era exposed that it had never gone away and was in fact flourishing on the left. The idea of common cause that was part of a left wing identity also fell apart. Thats when I educated myself about antisemitism.

I'm still horrified to see someone say Jewish people should fight their own battles.

I hope some people reading this will realise how important it is now to make common cause with Jewish people. Don't turn away.

Oshio · 19/07/2025 12:05

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:47

I agree that proportionally that is a very large number of crimes on Jews.

But it’s also been reported that 80% of Muslims who experienced hate crimes don’t report them.

So first the data was wrong, and now the data (which you just shared yourself) doesn't count.

My son experienced 4 hate crimes and reported 1. Because the police could not have cared less.

You only need eyes and ears to see what's going on.

ForWittyTealOP · 19/07/2025 12:02

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:55

Whilst I disagree with her that they can’t experience racism, she did say they experience prejudice similar to racism.

Which is incorrect, unless you believe that the Holocaust was about a dislike of a religious group rather than a systematic attempt to eradicate an entire ethnicity.

In my view she showed her contempt of Jews by likening anti semitism to teasing endured by people with red hair. How can she continue to represent a constituency with such a diverse range of Jewish voters after this?

Oshio · 19/07/2025 12:00

Lavenderflower · 19/07/2025 11:27

I didn’t see the original, but that doesn’t change my perspective. The comments you made are exactly why, as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles. I understand and accept that you may not agree, and that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their own views.

It's odd that you've spent several posts now attacking me for a reply I made to a post without reading the post I replied to.

Let's recap:

Poster:
"I agree with Diane Abbot, and we don't agree on many things.As someone of Irish heritage, who was bullied lots at school in the 70s for being 'IRA', my experience is no where close to my friends who are Black and Asian who are stared at every time they walk into a public space"

My reply:
"So like Diane your judging other people's lives based on your own. Diane lives in a place where less than half the population is white. Black people are not a suprise people stare at. It's not 1970"

So the context and my point should be obvious. Black and Asian people are simply not a minority in Hackney.

The poster is applying her minimisation of the bigotry others experience based on the fact that seemingly she personally happens to live in a place where seeing Black and Asian people isn't something they do all day every day.

As for your statement "as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles" thanks for clearing that up, reading between the lines I think Diane feels the same.

What you're doing here today isn't fighting your own battle - it's doing what you've accused everyone else of doing and trying to minimise other people's experiences to prioritise your own.

There’s an underlying assumption that minority groups are in competition, not common cause. That it’s “us vs. them”, not “all of us against racism.” I'm sorry to say I was quite naive in not seeing this before.

I spent decades of my life aggressively standing against racism. I joined protests, i voted accordingly, I advocated, I spoke up when I saw unfairness and I frankly am shocked to see the sentiment not returned.

I am white. Pretty much anyway. Brown mum, but I came out white. But one thing I've never thought about any injustice is, “they can fight their own battles.”

But from what ive garnered from listening to the Jewish community is that they now understand that hate crime, bigotry, discrimination and harassment against them - and seemingly only them - apparently doesnt warrant collective support from our countrys most vocal so-called and verbose racism theorists.

ForWittyTealOP · 19/07/2025 11:58

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:44

I don’t think the amount of criticism DA gets for sending her son to private school when compared to Tony Blair who did the same is justifiable.

In context it does. Blair was a social democrat on the right of the Labour party whereas Abbott is a staunch socialist, or says she is. In reality socialists tend not to access private education and make weak excuses for doing so. She's been the MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington for decades. She had ample opportunity to raise what she claimed as inadequate provision of education for Hackney boys in Parliament. Instead she opted to pay for privilege and stonewall constituents who questioned that.

I don't think anyone in the Labour party should pay for private education but nobody can credibly claim surprise that Blair did. It didn't feel like a betrayal of oft-stated principle like it did to Abbott's constituents when she did it.

SharonEllis · 19/07/2025 11:57

@Lavenderflower Oh my word. I tried to be so diplomatic in my response but I had not seen this. I think this goes beyond agreeing to disagree. You are openly saying you would not be an ally to the Jewish community. What on earth would happen if a Jewish person said they would not be an ally with the black community. They would be called a racist, surely?

Perhaps you aren't aware of the history of Jews allying with other minorities, particularly racialised minorities? In the civil rights movement in the US Jews helped form the NAACP & marched alongside Martin Luther King & many black & Jewish americans still find common cause. in South Africa Jews were critical allies in the fight against apartheid. Across the left there was, until recently a strong sense of solidarity and allyship despite diffrrences and at times some distrust.

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:55

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 11:50

What she originally said (and then pretended to mis speak) was very different to what she is now saying. She originally said Irish Travellers and Jewish people were not subject to racism. And who can forget her previous comments about how white people love playing divide and rule? Of course, there’s nothing racist in her own views…ooooooh nooooo!

Whilst I disagree with her that they can’t experience racism, she did say they experience prejudice similar to racism.

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:54

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 11:53

Is this the son who uses crystal meth and spits on police officers? Thank heavens for private education eh? 🙄

Was that really necessary?

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 11:53

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:44

I don’t think the amount of criticism DA gets for sending her son to private school when compared to Tony Blair who did the same is justifiable.

Is this the son who uses crystal meth and spits on police officers? Thank heavens for private education eh? 🙄

AuntyHistamine · 19/07/2025 11:50

What she originally said (and then pretended to mis speak) was very different to what she is now saying. She originally said Irish Travellers and Jewish people were not subject to racism. And who can forget her previous comments about how white people love playing divide and rule? Of course, there’s nothing racist in her own views…ooooooh nooooo!

nomas · 19/07/2025 11:47

Oshio · 19/07/2025 11:41

It is true.

Basic stats (Year ending March 2024, England & Wales)

Jews:
• 3,282 police-recorded religious hate crimes
• Jewish population ~ 271,300 → 121 hate crimes per 10,000 people

Muslims:
• 3,866 religious hate crimes
• Muslim population ~ 3,868,100 → 10 hate crimes per 10,000 people

So although absolute hate crimes targeting Muslims are slightly higher, the rate per person is much lower because the Muslim community is much larger.

121 ÷ 10 ≈ 12.1 → thus, a Jewish individual was roughly twelve times more likely to be a victim of a religious hate crime than a Muslim individual.

I agree that proportionally that is a very large number of crimes on Jews.

But it’s also been reported that 80% of Muslims who experienced hate crimes don’t report them.