To think people pleasing can be very dangerous and can’t be underestimated?

I don’t think PP is denying that - just that at some point you need to own the decisions you make and can’t keep looking back 40, 50 years for someone else to blame (not include abuse in this).

Fine line between not worrying about what others think and being selfish though?

I agree it is dangerous. It does nothing good for your mental health. And yes, I believe a lot is a result of socialization.

BUT it is not inevitable. It does mean perhaps tolerating people being unhappy with you or being in conflict at times. So you may well have to face the discomfort that comes with that, or overcome the idea that you are wrong if you dont put other peoples needs before your own.

But when you stop to think about it, what a fucked up way to live.

How interesting. Can you tell us a bit more about this? I know we all notice that we stop caring much about what other people think about us at a certain age, but it sounds like you’re looking into this specifically through women who are brought up to be people pleasers?

Fully accepting responsibility for adult choices doesn't stop you from acknowledging the influences and root causes behind the choices you have made.

I agree with this. My latter example is where she really needs to take ownership of her own decisions and the consequences.

It so difficult though - anything can be turned into a negative or positive. It also depends partly on the personality of the parent and that of the child.
Some of the nicest people and most successful in terms of close friendships, support circles and work relationships are very considerate people who put themselves out for others.
Equally, another has martyred herself to her DM, which has had an huge consequence on her family life - she knows this but can’t help herself because that’s how she has been raised.

There has to come a point where people are responsible for themselves ans their decisions,you made your choices as a grown up?

I’m literally writing my Masters dissertation at the moment on this exact subject and how it affects our menopause experience.

I was raised completely the opposite to this, to believe we were better than everyone else. This brings its own issues but is I think preferable if one or the other had to be chosen I’m sure something in between is the healthiest.

I often dwell on feelings of frustration, anger and sadness that I have allowed myself to be treated badly in a range of ways over the years - not sticking up for myself or feeling able to put my needs first or even equal. Am really trying to focus on now and realise it’s not my fault. Work in progress, prob always will be

In a similar vein, we were told you eat what you're given and don't ask for food and drink. As an adult I was diagnosed with coeliac disease and navigating that when you've been brought up not to make a fuss about food is challenging.

Yes to this, too.

Yes yes, this!

Be Kind is another similar phrase.

It’s ok to say no !

Yes I grew up like this and it was part of how I ended up in a really bad relationship as I had no idea how to put myself first.

I totally agree with this.
After my parents died I was on my own one day and it suddenly occurred to me that I was free to be what I want and who I really am.

Then the penny dropped that I had no idea what that was.

The actual quote is ‘love they neighbour, as yourself’ which means treating yourself well.

My brother and I were always warned, 'Don't let me down' and 'Only speak when spoken to' when we were going to be in any kind of company. He has severe social anxiety and I am never completely myself or at ease with other people.

If we were upset the response was, 'Why are you doing this to me? Don't be so oversensitive.' Any attempt to stand up to our parents or any hint of anger on our part was met with anger, silent treatment and punishment.

It's easy to grow up thinking you only exist and have value if you meet the demands and expectations of others and to fear upsetting others even to your own detriment.

I'm only just breaking free of this in my 60s. It's been hard to fight it and I wonder how much easier things would have been and how many mistakes I wouldn't have made if things had been different.

That all sounds very familiar!

I listened to myself today excessively thanking someone for a small favour and afterwards compounded it further by berating myself.

Yes - it’s so easily encouraged from a young age and leaves people growing up wondering who they are because they’ve always thought about other people’s feelings. It can even get to the point where they don’t really exist because their sense of self has been so minimised at the expense of others. It often comes from volatile/emotionally immature parents who consciously or subconsciously make their kids prioritise their good mood over their own feelings. Think trying to keep mum happy so she doesn’t shout at us again. To anyone interested, Mel Robbins podcast ep called 4 signs of emotionally immature parents is very helpful as is anything by Gabor Mate. His book ‘the myth of normal’ in particular plus any podcasts he’s on often touch on this topic.

Same here - my dm was so obsequious and desperate to please and did a really good job of teaching me that too.

Yeah hss massively held me back. Still does and I continue to work on it. In childhood learnt don’t rock boat, avoid conflict, accept whatever you are given in relationships, keep the peace. It’s hard to recover from

Bad for the people pleaser. But also, ironically, it doesn’t please people. It pleases narcs, who we shouldn’t please. It frustrates and annoys normal people who want an honest, equal relationship.

"Don't speak unless you're spoken to"

Not sure whether this is solely to blame for my social awkwardness but I'm sure it hasn't helped.