To think people pleasing can be very dangerous and can’t be underestimated?

Me too. The funny thing is my parents snobby attitude and the way we were disliked in my village as a result became a source of huge embarrassment and shame to me in my teens. This led me to constantly reassure everyone I wasn't like them and I went out of my way to be overly nice to everyone. I developed an almost irrational fear of being disliked. I became such a people pleaser, yet at the same time I had a strong sense of self esteem and I would often be very upset at how people treated me or made me feel invisible. I didn't see that i had contributed. For me for whatever reason, it was women that trampled on me most in friendships, I was never taken for a mug in relationships so I'm thinking I must have been assertive one to one, just not socially.

It is difficult!

Where is the line between being altruistic and being a doormat?

I guess when it is not a two-way process of give and take?
When it is not appreciated?
When it is expected and then you are made to feel guilty if you are unable to help out for good reason?
When you feel emotionally pressured to do so?

I think it’s great that you are having these conversations and hopefully she will then be aware that she has people pleasing tendencies. As she gets older she will learn to navigate these situations - it’s hard enough as an adult when there is no peer pressure, even more tricky for a child, I suspect.

My DC were in a situation with another child who tended to boss where they could sit etc - I told them it is ok not to want to do as that child said and gave them phrases they could use, “thank you but I am fine sitting where I am” etc - part of it is validating their feelings of not wanting to be bossed, reassuring them that they are not being rude by declining and providing them with a polite but clear way of doing so.

This is all so interesting and quite the revelation for me.
I guess I am a people pleaser and I can see the negative consequences.
But I can also see the positives. It makes me happy to see other people happy and to help them if I can.
Surely we need to be people pleasers to have a good society and community?
Or am I confused/ naive and in denial?
Very confusing.
Where is the line between being altruistic and being a doormat?

I know, it's tough. But I think that you can have all the conversations in the world about it, but what she will see and learn from is you modelling that behaviour.

I'm sure you're keen to break the pattern for yourself, and you'll be doing it for her too. Good luck!

I am very aware that emotional abuse exists and what it is - I specifically said not including abuse in my post. However, not everyone who is a people pleaser is subjected to emotional abuse and some/many do it through social conditioning, expectations, personality etc.

I’ve had conversation after conversation with my 10 year old about putting herself first. But she’s still a people pleaser (like me). I’m trying very hard to break the cycle for her but it’s not working so far.

I agree completely.
I’ve had conversations with dd about always putting themselves first. Never feeling obliged to put up with shitty behaviour because that’s what females are supposed to do.
Dd is a manager and has quite frequently told men to STFU when she is leading a team meeting. She has snapped would you speak to Ian like that? No thought not, so don’t do it to me. She has earned respect and now non of her team speak down to her. It’s pathetic that she had to do this though.
Likewise we have had conversation about older men insisting on sitting next to her on almost empty buses. She has told them no, she will not move her belongings so they can sit rubbing up to her. Fuck that.
I’m menopausal and don’t engage with any random stranger just for their benefit. Don’t get me wrong, if a stranger speaks to me I will reply but in the words of Pink, I’m not her for anybody’s entertainment.

CF neighbour. I don't know if they're Gluten Free or not... 😁

I'm sure you're right, @JoyDivision79 , and that constant 'fight or flight' is so exhausting...

Well done for seeing off your GF neighbour, but don't you find it's so psychologically (and thus physically) wearing? It's great to get feistier as we get older, and I stand up for myself so much more now, but it can still take a lot out of me because it's going against decades of conditioning - like lifting a heavy weight when you don't normally do that sort of thing.

The CFs just thrive on the conflict because that's how they live every day... (hell mend them!)

Hmm. I’m in my 50s and I get that we as women are programmed to put others - namely men - first.

But is it really a choice between being a people pleasing doormat and someone who wouldn’t piss on others if they were on fire?

Surely there’s a happy medium.

I think it’s important to acknowledge that people pleasers are often victims of childhood emotional abuse. An often minimised form of abuse compared to horrendous crimes against children, however, it has been described by experts as death by a thousand cuts - each incident can be seemingly small but for a child growing up in this environment, it shapes their whole sense of self - each little comment, argument or moment where they weren’t even ‘seen’ .

Emotional abuse in childhood can be incredibly hard to heal from and I don’t think it’s fair to say ‘you’re an adult now, own it and stop looking back’. This form of trauma is incredibly complex and is literally how your whole identity was created so you can’t just close that chapter because the impact of those early years has created who you are today. You need empathy, support and often a therapist specialising in this stuff to find who you ‘are’ once you strip away all the history. For a lot of people, they suddenly realise there is nothing to them if they’re not validated by others and that’s a terrifying realisation.

No, not specifically a middle class thing.
I am working class, grew up in a predominantly working class community and have subsequently meandered through a range of social contexts over the course of my five decades -I see the impact of this socialisation run deep in women of all backgrounds and creeds.

In my own life, it has brought me down the cul-de-sac of wasting 20 years in an impossible relationship (resonating with MrsTerryPratchet's post upthread) and am now trying to untangle myself.

100% agree.

What we should say is:

'Be kind but respect yourself'.

Unfortunately be kind is now a weasel phrase, so I prefer

'Respect everyone equally, including yourself'.

This actually reflects the law whilst safeguards.

I agree. I married a violent abuser as I felt bad upsetting him. Completely crazy and dangerous.

I hope you enjoy the ep! I don’t always enjoy her eps but the one about parents was like it was aimed directly at me!

The book Running on Empty by Jonice Webb PhD is also very helpful and I think it now has a workbook you can fill in as you read.

Yes, this, so much!

I think it also extends beyond being vulnerable in way you describe. Suppressing your own emotions can have a huge impact on your mental health - it can lead to burn out after ‘masking’ for so long, cause anxiety (because you’re hyper vigilant to people around you), or it can lead to depression or feeling ‘nothing’ at all - at which point you wonder are you really living or just going through the motions. It can also lead to addiction issues and Gabor Mate discusses the interesting connection with chronic disease and people pleasing. It is really really dangerous in its most potent form.

I also need to challenge the narrative that women only suffer from it. As someone who has witnessed a male loved one dealing with this and done a lot of reading up to understand what’s going on, men are also deeply affected by this.

As Joy said, there are so many cheeky fuckers around it's incredible.

They sniff out niceness a mile away!!

Completely agree

I've been a pushover a lot, and come across as too bloody friendly and nice - because that's the way we are taught to be, right?

It doesn't always serve you well in life to be nice, all the time

It is so dangerous I believe it has contributed significantly to my horrendous quality of life with multiple aggressive autoimmune diseases and missing parts of my digestion.

I have a plethora of illnesses and am primarily sofa bound in my mid 40s. Years of therapy helped me realise. I took on everyone's faults and the blame for them. I did everything for others who were and are cruel and devoid of empathy to my own detriment.

The never ending state of fight or flight and never saying no meant high stress permanently and failure to adequately take care of my needs.

I'm now No Contact and pretty alone which is healthier for me.

I noticed today even my neighbour has gone mega CF and I thought, if I was a very firm non people pleaser person from the outset, would this even be happening?

There are so many willing CF type people that it's very damaging to the health of people pleasers in my opinion.

Neighbour is now put in place - again ffs- but I now realise you just can't be friends or too nice. It's not an option.