To think people pleasing can be very dangerous and can’t be underestimated?

I agree @THisbackwithavengeance there is a happy medium. I don't think its good to raise children to put themselves first. That results in a generally unpleasant society, where everyone is miserable, it has a serious knock on effect as we know from the multiple 'why is everyone so selfish now' threads here.

I think its very important to think of yourself in the context of others all the time, but to know when the time is to advocate for yourself too. It's recognising the difference that's tricky.

It's also important to understand that some people are not resentful people pleasers, they actually get something for themselves too. I like helping people, I would do more volunteering if I could, I go out of my way to help clients at work. I like to be thanked but mostly I don't mind as long as someone isn't rude because i feel ive helped make someone's day a little easier. I think I am naturally a 'nice' person because I genuinely wish people well and often have good thoughts about them. I would silently hope my friend does well in her exam or hope my neighbours new baby is settling OK. Even with strangers, I see a broken down car and i hope they are not in a rush somewhere, or I see a tired stressed looking person on the bus and I secretly wish them a relaxing evening. I don't do it for anyone else but I feel like I am sending some sort of positive energy their way and that makes me feel happy. So I guess I'm saying sometimes what seems like people pleasing can be self serving too.

Thank you for the swing insights! I was questioning whether I should always let the cf win. I am pleased to report that my dcs are now (just about!) adults and are definitely not people pleasers!!

It is hard to be assertive whilst remaining pleasant and reasonable. I think I get hot and bothered if I have to say No to someone or stand my ground, but I do try to be polite. Some people come across as aggressive or with that “Why should I?” belligerent air.

I would tell the child they could have a turn when me child had finished.

Plenty of people know that a situation is difficult, but not see how they create the situation or play into it. Lots ot threads on mn illustrate that many people are shockingly lacking in self awareness.

It is a shame because it blocks them from realising that they can enact change or accessing therapy etc. So they are stuck.

The difficulty with people pleasing i particular, is that commonly people pleasers have been groomed out of self awareness, taught that what they want, who they are even doesn't matter, their role is to please. So expecting a high degree of attunement to self is an unreasonable expectation.

I think that the principle of this is fine, though maybe the example is a little off (I wouldn't consider it necessary to leave for a good few minutes, staring or not).

You're right though that sometimes it's not worth the "fight" over something you don't want much. You actually see a lot of ex-people pleasers trying to "stand on their rights" and assert themselves over really silly and petty things because they haven't learned when it's appropriate to assert yourself or when one can graciously give way.

Oh dear, apologies. I've lost my glasses this morning 🤓.

Hopefully whomever posted ref their therapy experience will see it.

I think you have tagged me by mistake

@noworklifebalance some therapists should not be allowed to leave their bedroom. It is not a given that someone doing this is suited, able to park all their bias and has good enough experience.

That man sounds appalling. A stay in your bedroom type.

I had a few duds who brought their issues in. I have had appalling appalling behaviour, very long standing covert manipulative cruelty hands of my mum. One therapist, also a mum with difficult teen-agers at the time was bringing this into the session in the way she was continually sympathetic to my mum. Wtf.

I have an older, world wise lady I've seen for 15 years.now ( not the same lady as above). Such an eye opener. I faced all my own problematic behaviour too and took it on because she is so good. Going low to almost NC has been the best thing for me. I had little choice once I began to see what I had blocked out forever.

My phrase is. The needs of others is is important BUT SO ARE YOU

I think you’re throwing a lot of different things together here. Some of this sounds like just smalltown stuff. It’s not ‘people-pleasing’ to be afraid to do something you want to do because you’re afraid of being the subject of gossip. You have the option of travelling elsewhere to go clubbing, if you want to, or indeed, of moving elsewhere if the bad elements of living where you do outweigh the good. It does suggest a pattern of hyper-focus on other people’s responses to you, rather than your responses to them, and a hype-vigilance about ‘getting into trouble’, or what you perceive to be trouble. Which, yes, is a type of avoiding responsibility, because it makes other people responsible for what you do or don’t do.

I come at this from the perspective of someone only a couple of years younger than you who had a very fucked up childhood I’m only really dealing with now, in therapy. I’m not unsympathetic.

Unfortunately, this tells your child that the other child’s unreasonable expectations or wants trumps your own child‘s wants - what has ultimately happened is that your child missed out in preference for the other.
This is not being superior- this is being a doormat. Sorry to sound harsh but that’s what they are being set up to become.
What you could have said and role modelled is - my DC is still having their turn but you can be next and we will call for you when they have finished in 10min. That shows consideration for the child waiting without your child having to give up.

I've skimmed through most of these and agree with so much. I'm still annoyed (20 years later) about a counsellor I had in my early 20s. He suggested I was manipultive and when he said it I was surprised and upset. I have spent so much of my life trying to be unobtrusive, never inviting any conflict at all, even when I know I am in the right, and keeping everyone happy. I didn't reply with how I felt about what he said, didn't disagree, I came away from those counselling sessions feeling worse about myself! I'm always the one that says, "no, you go ahead, I don't mind" when actually of course I mind! But I'm never going yo say that.

I'm trying to raise my dds differently. They know the importance of being polite but also will stand up for themselves and I actively want them to put themselves first when required. I've had to change to so they can see me modelling the behaviour I want in them. I'm not where I want to be yet but getting there.

I have an innate hope that people will have reasonable basic behaviour that doesn't trample all over your space. And when they so so often don't I do find it exhausting. Because I'm vulnerable with poor health, it also makes me feel stressed out.

I have istorically lost it a few times. I have had a whole life of people in my family behaving appallingly and I took it. I'm aware that the very rare occasions I've gone loco are reactive abuse. So preventing that is really important for me. ( I'm generally decent, don't road rage or throw weight about).

One time however I went crazed at a neighbour who parked their 2 cars in the one only space for me. There was a build up of CF behaviour, walking in their dog shit outside my house, husband snorting up green phlegm outside my window.

I really regretted it as I was so angry I called her a c**t when spoken back to for saying stop parking there please. 😬 It's a lesson to get things in early and clearly let people know who you are. I was way too nice and accommodating.

I live in Hassociation and yes the stereotype is a thing for many in it. I'm also living that stereotype being such an uncouth potty mouth - even though I said c bomb in a wonderfully educated voice 😆.

So now, I tell myself that GUILT is better than RESENTMENT. ( Excellent advice I read). Don't ever let it get to resentment because it's so unhealthy and some of us with difficult pasts could over time become too reactive. And we are then the problem.

I'm a child of drinkers. Narc family ( yes they absolutely are with cross into really dark sociopathic traits).. Years of therapy. 15 years in fact.

Exactly- stand your ground if you just got on the swings! Say “we’ll be 5 mins then it’s your turn”. Some random kid is not more important than yours.

I was reading the replies and just thinking this too.

A little bit of niceness helps the world go round.

The Gen Z women seem to be less socialised into this and sometimes I feel taken aback at how devoid of pleasantries they are, esp in a customer facing role. (I feel really old writing that!) But the world needs a little warmth, to take the chill off.

Completely agree, it's so common in women. My parents bullied me and minimised my feelings,as a result I was taken advantage of by so -called friends, was unable to stand up for myself, bullied, was in an abusive relationship, and my health has suffered.
When I reached menopause ( and joined Mumsnet) I realised this wasn't normal, my feelings did matter, and I could stand up for myself.
I'm in a much better place now, and don't hesitate to maintain boundaries and say no when I want to, but I'm bitter about those years wasted with people taking advantage of me, and how it's affected my health- as a kid i remember lying awake grinding my teeth in frustration at how my parents treated me, and my digestion ruined from overeating to self- soothe. It makes me so angry now, but I'm trying to let go of it so it doesn't affect the rest of my life.
I'm nearly 60 and my 92 year old dad still thinks I shoukd be running after him, despite the way he continues to treat me. I've gone low contact, but I don't think he realises yet.
I hope you find happiness OP, if you've suffered the same way.

I'm saying that societal expectations are that a 56 year old widow shouldn't be going out clubbing because the demographic for that is much younger, alcohol influences behaviour, and while i shouldn't care, I'm living in a small town where I'm quite well known and don't wish to become gossip fodder or the subject of an intervention. And yes, this ties in with being a people pleaser, because any fleeting pleasure I might get from head banging for an hour is likely to be outweighed by problematic encounters with people.

You see everybody's situation is unique, and informed by so many factors that while there can be patterns in the behaviour of people who have various common denominator, there are also nuances that might only apply to a specific situation or person.

Somebody alluded to people using their problematic "pleasing" behaviour as an excuse for not taking responsibility for their own lives. This plays perfectly into the conundrum of childhood conditioning. You push back, you get slapped down. You comply, you're a doormat. It's like being in a game where everybody else has the rules but they're off limits so devising a "winning" strategy feels impossible.

For me, the mental gymnastics i have learned to do, do suck the joy out of life, because I am constantly evaluating interactions and trying to find the optimum solution for all concerned, even me these days. The fear of "getting into trouble" is very real, and some of my experiences around that are very intense, because when I have absolutely been in the right, and stood up for it, the consequences have been extremely negative.

My inner narrative is "pathetic, pull yourself together, what's wrong with you, no wonder your life is a shitshow" and I'm exhausted from it, so I've exiled myself and at least I have fewer options for chaos to erupt. It's a bigger issue than just being a people pleaser, but that facet of myself is part of the problem. So maybe I am avoiding responsibility.

And this is why I'm having counselling.

I'll always be someone who will naturally want to support or help. Too many people take advantage. I'm sure even I could. It's human. Learning excellent boundaries is great. I found I lost people just putting in the basic ones.

Same. My mum couldn’t and can’t deal with others’ emotions so I learned to never vocalise them or ask for what I wanted and hate confrontations. Only in mid 40s am I realising how problematic that has been.

You’re right - people pleasing isn’t always a negative because everyone around you can benefit. Family, friends, colleagues - you’re the reliable person who they can depend on. But at what cost to your own sense of self?

I agree that we can’t all just do what we like without a care for the people around us. We live in a society - we need to work together. I think people pleasing is different to having empathy and helping others. You can be an incredible friend, daughter, colleague and not people please because you have good emotional intelligence and know that helping others is important and enjoyable.

People pleasing in its sinister form is the fear of saying no to requests, the fear of being disliked or not loved because you say no. So agreeing to help a friend/family member when you actually just need some time alone after an awful week, agreeing to a social thing when your body is telling you it needs rest or taking on a colleagues work to help them even though you’re about to miss your own deadline. It can be exacerbated by emotionally immature people who use guilt or other forms to emotional manipulation to force you to push aside your needs for others. Obviously if you skip out on things all the time because you don’t want to, you could be being selfish but simply thinking about what you actually want first before deciding what to do is important. Putting your needs after everyone else’s isn’t healthy or authentic and healthy selfishness (self care, boundaries, listening to your MH needs) will help you be a better, healthier person on the long run.

I’ve people pleased most of my life.
I never moaned about it. I thought it was me being kind and caring. I thought it made me a good person.
So I did it all very willingly. Not under duress and thinking from the word go that I’d rather do somethings else.

But surely that proves to you, if you needed proof, that people-pleasing doesn’t work. It doesn’t buy you friendship in exchange for services rendered, if that’s what you thought you were getting in exchange for ‘support’.

Yep, I agree there.
And to be fair, there is the fact that this behaviour WAS the expected norm for women of those generations.
Women people pleasing was just one of the way patriarchy expressed itself.

But people-pleasing is by its nature avoidant. Peoole-pleasers can’t cope with the discomfort of saying ‘no’, so they avoiding it at all costs by continually doing things they don’t want to do, hence moaning about it or secretly resenting it.

Yes it is and you just end up being used. I've people pleased all my life because of my DM and last summer taught me that even after decades of friendship and support people scatter and spread lies when you need them.

I'm always telling my two to put themselves first.