Constance Marten case — I feel the police have some responsibility too

In my experience removal of the child(ren) is the last resort, not the default

In my expierence you are absolutely right.

With most families, social workers to try resolve the issue and work on better outcomes for the family,often using a multi agency approach . If a child needs to be removed they will look for suitable family members to help out.
Its only when things are at absolute crisis and a there is a serious safeguarding issue will a team remove children immediately.

If every child was removed because things weren't good, where would they all go? There is a shortage of foster carers and placements for children and generally children are best placed in the care with their mothers and want to be with them. It is much cheaper in the long term to help mum to become a better parent than to spend on placements.

Yes. Baby could have lived quietly with the violent rapist in another country. Would have been fine.

What do you think legal aid is for? Everyone deserves to be properly represented at court.

Should only the rich have the right to a fair trail?

Or should there be affordable legal representation for all, regardless of means.

It’s how justice in a democracy works.

But the outcome wouldn't be different. They would have just allowed their baby die in a foreign country instead.

As another poster said: their attitude said alot!
Constance was arrogant and rude as well as Mark being so. Vile people!

According to the bbc her family/she believed her family had taken a travel ban out.

chances are once the authorities knew she was pregnant a border alert would have gone out.

it’s possible they didn’t have passports. If Gordon had convictions or was on bail he may have had restrictions on travel.

again, you may think it’s strange but aren’t you making conclusions without full knowledge of the circumstances?

It wasn't a job. It was from her family trust fund. It was in the BBC article yesterday.

Both parents missed more than half their arranged visits with their children while they were in foster care. When the children cried having been stood up yet again, Marten just coldly said they need to look at the bigger picture.

I think drugs must have been involved. Not just cannabis. I can't think of why they would not turn up for their kids if they wanted them back so badly. Gordon threw her out of a widow and her and the baby could've died. But she still stayed with him and that's why the kids couldn't be with them. Well, one of the reasons.

It particularly takes the cake when that someone hasn't even bothered to read the reports properly before sticking the boot in.

It really doesn’t, this was a catalogue of repeated decisions and refusal of help and support. It’s incredibly hard to remove children from their parents - there’s a huge amount of intervention along the way and very clear warnings about the potential consequences. It’s much more than a few things going wrong.

What was her income at the time of the crime? You can’t deny someone legal aid due to a previous job.

I’m certainly not a few things wrong away from dating a rapist, abusing my children or leaving a newborn baby in a freezing tent then shoving them in a carrier bag with some rubbish once they’re dead.

They were already living in a tent when she was pregnant with the first baby, before any involvement with social services or the police. There was no reason to be doing that so they were making terrible decisions long before they went on the run.

Ah, ok.

Yes I understand that. But also (at one point at least) had an income of £250,000 a year.

And many many other people with a much smaller income are denied legal aid aren't they?

I think you need to read up on the background of this case

And also put your experiences aside and how you might have felt

Ultimately the concern was about the welfare of a new born baby and how they in the past (past behaviour so often repeats) had neglected their children to such an extent all were taken into care. This does not happen because they were not particularly caring parents this happened because they are neglectful parents who put themselves first

She didn't ask her family or her trust fund for money she refused so.was "entitled " to legal aid she also kept firing her solicitors, she sounds a deeply unpleasant person without any remorse for any of her actions.or decisions.

In my experience removal of the child(ren) is the last resort, not the default.

I kind of agree with you. It only takes a few things to go wrong for many of us to find ourselves in a similar situation. There but for the grace of God.

It’s a key tenant of the justice system that everyone has the right to a defence.

if she qualifies for legal aid it it correct that she would get it.

no matter what she’s done she is entitled to legal counsel.

The only "failure" there was was with letting a violent rapist who raped someone when he was 14 and threatened to kill her children, who assaulted police officers in the hospital and who likely pushed his pregnant partner out of a window so she miscarried roam free.

The actual case, they were doing what needed to be done. Health services were pleading for them to hand their baby over for her own safety.

They could have left her somewhere safe and stayed on the run. They could have left her body to be found respectfully. They didn't.

They acted so poorly in court that the judge said he'd never seen anything like it before

Disgusting pair of humans

This is when mandatory sterilisation sounds like a good idea

No they are to blame, sticking a vulnerable and any other label on it does not excuse it or make anyone else at fault, I am tired of endless excuses used whenever a woman does something wrong, giving birth or having a child/ren is not an excuse for anyone whether mother, father, grandparent or anyone else

Society keeps on coming up with labels it doesn't stop children being harmed

Well I think these two people were not in anyway within the boundaries of a normal mother experiencing post partem issues.
Everything in their life stories is so far from a normal upbringing and life that they seem to be drtached from reality.
Both seemnto have phychiateic issues far beyond a postpartem depression. They were dangerously detached and volatile and had prior history of extreme behaviour.
Both seem not to understand what they have done wrong.

Yes I feel deeply sorry for the children. I too have limited sympathy re her repeated pregnancies, but I can kind of see why it happened. I am not sure I buy 'evil' over seriously mentally unwell. Such a tragedy.

Was that when the children were removed though ? Or maybe I’m getting mixed up ?