Constance Marten case — I feel the police have some responsibility too

My opinion stays as previously posted. So many harsh and nasty views on here.

I don't think that her privilege especially comes into it. Money or not, people can still suffer from the same mental health issues and childhood traumas. I think that it's an oversimplification to see her as an arrogant rich girl. She hasn't taken any accountability for her actions and has been extremely defensive. Nothing is her fault and she is certainly not a likeable character. But knowing what I do about people with paranoid personality traits, this is a common part of a complex mental health condition. It's hard to know how much control she had over her warped and damaged mind. It's very easy to judge her choices by the standards of normal people, but she clearly wasn't. She does deserve to have some responsibility, which is why i am pleased with the decision.

What a fucked up family

my thoughts are with the four children living in care

I agree. I also think that lots of us have a strong impulse to want to see them sympathetically because the reality is too awful and hard to get your head round.
The reality is that both of them regarded their child as a throwaway object, just a means to an end, they had no parental or nurturing instincts whatsoever. This is horrifying and abhorrent to a normal caring parent.

Does anyone know when sentencing is?

Social services would have assessed her family members if they had been willing to take the children.

For whatever reason the family didnt take the children.

So then what? Nowadays there is a huge push for what you call "open adoptions" in that there is ongoing contact of some sort.

This has been the case for a very long time. I adopted in 2001 and the importance of birth family knowledge and contact was taken very seriously even then.

The reason adoptions fail is largely because of the damage done pre placement. Foetal alcohol syndrome is a massive problem for example. Babies being born drug addicted. Neglect and abuse.

Social services don't just walk in on random families and remove their children. There is always a trail of concerns, from family, neighbours, doctors, school.

Yes I agree - social workers can get it wrong, both leaving children for too long and removing too quickly and both can be harmful. I also think we need to recognise the public rarely have all the information to make an assessment of whether the right decision was made in any one case.

The police are absolutely not to blame. The pair of them are vile people who had absolutely no consideration for the other four children they lost to the system as well as their newborn who tragically died as a direct result of their actions. Not the police’s actions, not social services actions, their actions and their actions alone. It was their previous* conduct that raised significant concern for this baby and unfortunately, the concerns were proven to be completely valid. Their previous and ongoing conduct has been nothing short of despicable.

They could have chosen at any point to stop, to hand themselves in and get their daughter checked over if they truly cared about her wellbeing. If they had really acted out of fear initially, they would have stopped. But they didn’t. This was never about fear, this was everything about “sticking it to the man”, their grandiose ideas and not wanting to be told what to do regardless of the impact this would have on their child. Don’t make excuses for either of them.

Have you read the description of the rape that he committed in the US. It is difficult to have much sympathy for him.

Ooh now...let me think. Help eh? Apart from her family offering to buy them a house and put in paid support; apart from social services bending over backwards to accommodate their crap parenting; apart from SS setting up regular contact sessions with their children (after being removed to a place of safety) that they couldn't be bothered to turn up at; apart from CM and AG refusing to engage with all help from any authorities etc etc etc...you get my drift?

What bloody help do YOU think they now need instead of prison? They haven't 'suffered enough'. That was the fate of their children: one dead after a horrific short life, and four probably permanently scarred by their parents' casual neglect.

Save your sympathy for those children.

I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated

Well that's what happens if you're found guilty of awful crimes

@LetsGoRoundAgainAgain don't feed them. They're just fishing for a reaction.

I agree, people need to take responsibility.

exactly.

This was reported in regard to the older children:

The couple began repeatedly missing contact sessions with their children, and then stopped visiting altogether. Their eldest child became distressed and developed a stammer. "My mummy and daddy cancelled again," the child told nursery staff.

as you say, there was no interest in actually caring for their offspring. The poor children were pawns in the toxic relationship between Marten and Gordon. The older four are undoubtedly damaged but at least have lives left to live, while the youngest paid the ultimate price.

how anyone can hold the police/ her family/ social services or anyone else in any way responsible is ludicrous.

No, but they are both very flawed vulnerable individuals with clear mental health issues who have become wholly reliant upon each other. They put each other first and for what?! They have absolutely nothing left. I think for them, that will be the part that destroys them (rather than the loss of their baby whom they appeared to have less feelings for). I just think that the whole situation is a sad one. Justice has been served and I am very glad of that, but there are no winners here.

Sorry.

What?

They killed their baby, shown no remorse at all, turned the court case that was for justice for her into a circus

And you think they've suffered enough?

Fucking hell.

@Jellycatspyjamas i don’t think you are ‘pro’ adoption any more than I am. My post isn’t trying to claim everyone holds one of those extreme beliefs. It is saying that some people do have extreme views on both sides about the subject of adoption, and both those sides can be problematic when discussing it.

If someone’s stance is ‘nonsense, social workers do not make mistakes’ that’s as problematic as ‘social workers always wrongly remove children.’

I agree we need to be really careful with the "everyone is a victim and there are always extenuating circumstances" culture.

She was born into a life that most of us would describe as extremely privileged Yes her parents don't sound ideal but that's the case for many people. How long can people keep blaming their upbringing before taking personal responsibility?

(edited to add paragraph)

However, it does raise the issue of responsibility. How much control did they have over their own very flawed decision making. It's very easy to judge them against the standards of normal people. They clearly weren't insane. However, neither were they fully sane. I think that the sentencing should reflect that.
I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated.

As adults deemed to have capacity, they are both responsible for and accountable for their own behaviour. I’m the first to recognise there’s a backstory that contributes to tragedy but really they both made decision after decision, had access to more resources than most and killed their child in the face of untold offers of help.

There’s been no question of insanity or personality disorder, nor any question that they lacked mental capacity. They knew what they were doing.

I do find it very strange, however, how much they wanted to keep this baby, when they had failed to show up to many of their contact appointments with their other children. They had been offered so much previous help and support and removing those children from them really was the absolute last resort. That said, she seemed to spend a huge amount of that time concealing pregnancies from the authorities. The judge summed it up exactly when they said that they were fighting a non existent enemy. They were just driven by paranoia. Unfortunately they were two very damaged individuals.

You have to be taking the piss? No rational person thinks these people should walk away from this to what go into therapy and have a hug or some kindness shown to them. They let their baby die ! They abandoned 4 previous children .

I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated.

They are not star crossed lovers 🙄.

It certainly is, but that's apparently still not good enough for some posters.

If anyone still feels sorry for either of them, just read about their trial (or trials in fact). The judge said they were the most disruptive defendants he'd ever encountered in all his years. They've behaved in the most outrageously entitled and petulant way you could possibly imagine and made a total mockery of everything. They haven't even mentioned their baby or other children, let alone shown concern, sadness or remorse. It's absolutely been 100% all about them. And just to cap it all, despite her £2.4 million fortune, they were awarded legal aid costing us god knows how much. It's been one very expensive pantomime.

You actually want these people to walk free?