Constance Marten case — I feel the police have some responsibility too

I wonder how many people would feel sorry for her if she wasn’t an attractive, wealthy aristocrat but was a pudgy lower class woman from a block of inner city council flats?

I'd be keen to, but I don't have a TV licence (no TV) so iPlayer is off limits.

My friend is several years into adopting a child via a forced adoption and maintaining contact with the mother is very much part of the process.

No, I disagree. I read the BBC article this morning about how they behaved in court, delaying the trial, refusing to attend, shouting, arguing, and Gorden choosing to represent himself which lead to him cross examining Martin (wtf?). They are clearly very disturbed, entitled people that feel the normal rules and laws of society don't apply to them. They are so wrapped up in themselves and each other they dont care about anything, even the life of a tiny baby. The police should have gone harder.

Having read several of the BBC articles about the family that came out yesterday, I've gone from feeling like the family was hounded to feeling like they had so much previous that the police would have been wrong to go in softly-softly.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11x1xgj78o
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c166p6kp95ko
These people shouldn't have been anywhere near children and the police did the best they could to protect those kids.

I have not read all the post in this thread. My sense is that this child was going to to be removed from their parents and the parents got desperate.

And on the point of her background, most children coming through the system are from poor working class backgrounds, and there is a societal belief that middle and upper class people parent better, they don’t, they just have a better support network around them to stop their children ending up in care, and maybe it’s good to highlight that this doesn’t just happen to the poor working class.

So many people on here who've got their "facts" from social media and haven't read a word of the very good reporting on this case.

What I don’t understand is why he wasn’t in prison after throwing her out of a window ? If he hadn’t been around she wouldn’t have got pregnant and the whole situation would never have happened .

Yes
More specifically, enforced closed adoptions which just don't work well.
They had had 4 children removed and forcefully placed for adoption. Engaging with social services had 0 chance of a happy outcome for them.

So many other countries allow open adoption and provide a chance for vulnerable parents to keep in touch with their birth parents even when these are unfit to care for them.

I agree, I hope they don’t get custodials, they’ve suffered enough. What they need is help.

I agree with everything bad that’s been said about these two.

however, I also think the media strategy was wrong because it became a dramatic manhunt which put Victoria at greater risk as it escalated their crazy behaviour.

had they not released the information to the public but only to police forces and other authorities they might have found her in time

Exactly this. Baby Victoria was only ever a symbol of how they court defeat the enemy.

Her welfare was never a consideration. Had she not died in that tent, they’d have abandoned her sooner or later because they have no interest in parenting. Only drugs, each other and winning a war that exists only in their heads.

If she wanted a baby so desperately as PPs have stated, she already had 4 she could have had access to had she wanted.

She was offered a house and paid support by her family and turned it down.

She was given placements in mother and baby units.

Would have been given any amount if SS support had she engaged rather than antagonised.

None of these are actions of a woman desperate for a child. They are the actions of a selfish, careless, narcissistic drug addict.

Exactly my thoughts. I’m a retired ex nurse and I’ve worked in Gynaecology and also with Post Natal women. I don’t think the police handled this very sensitively and I hope some lessons will be learnt but I somehow doubt it

Lived in their own way?? My parents lived in their own way with us - in a bus, minimal school, lots of time living abroad etc.

We were all still fed, clothed appropriately and cared for/ educated.

These parents apparently didn't give a shit about their kids, especially poor Victoria with not even a baby blanket when her parents are wearing winter jackets and scarves.

I don't see anything wrong with living an alternative/off grid life but not at the cost of neglecting a baby! Do you really think they'd have taken more care of her in any other country?

From what I've read in news articles her first childs removal was prompted by her affluent family's disapproval of her relationship and the removal was enforced when she fell out the window. Every child born afterwards was removed from birth - straight after labour. She never got much of a chance to be a mother before they were taken away. It must have been incredibly traumatic for her every time another child was taken immediately after birth. She was quite obviously doing everything she could to avoid that happening again and wanted a chance to be a mother. Also her involvement in the weird cult was orchestrated by her mother, who took her there on holiday and then conveniently left her naughty child behind with the religious kooks. Wealthy families don't ever really let their children grow up, there's always a level of control and entitlement coming from above. I know of a woman whose family took parental responsibility of her child in a private court case simply because they thought they could offer the child a more lavish lifestyle - more holidays, private schooling, tutors and private sports facilities. The woman, broken by the fact her grandmother was doing this, fell into a spiral of depression and walked away from the court case knowing she couldn't offer the same financial opportunities for her child. Then believing they were right (they were not! She's a wonderful mum). I see a lot of similarities here and do sympathise for Constance. Apart from the falling from a window and her partners criminal history I haven't read one thing that indicated her children should be removed - no drug or alcohol issues, no ss reports of inadequate housing, no domestic violence. The family didn't want her with him and that was the main reason it all started. She was eventually left to give birth in an air bnb in fear she would lose another child and had to flee to live in the wilderness to avoid the police manhunt. The police definitely hold some responsibility for the baby's death, so do her family and the social services.

It’s worth considering at least how it’s approached in other European countries. I don’t have a dog in this race, but I do think that it is worth some thought.

I’ve answered ‘what the fuck’ the ‘pro adoption lobby’ is - the belief that adoption is always right regardless of the specifics of each case. The same dogmatic view can apply in reverse: the belief that adoption is always a wrong act. Both positions are problematic.

Well indeed, yes.

But in cases where she’s wanting to put them first but barriers are in the way, or she is putting them first but is not believed and the overriding opinion is that she will return to an abusive partner then those cases perhaps need another look.

Why wouldn’t I be OK?

There are certainly people/groups who seem to blindly opine against adoption irrespective of the specific facts of a case.

There also seem to be those who are doggedly 'pro' adopters and adoption regardless of the facts of a specific case.

Both positions are dogmatic and less than logical.

I understand the police had to act quickly — especially when a newborn’s safety is uncertain. But I still think the way they did it made things worse.

What I keep coming back to is this: the police and media didn’t need to broadcast a full-scale manhunt in the way they did. Publicly, they could’ve taken a softer tone — something like: “We are not pursuing this as a criminal matter. We just want to make sure mum and baby are safe. Constance, you’re not in trouble, please come forward.”
Meanwhile, behind the scenes, they could’ve still been actively tracking them.

That kind of messaging could’ve made the pair feel safer and less hunted — possibly leading to calmer, more rational decisions. Instead, the aggressive public manhunt likely pushed them deeper into hiding. It’s what led them to sleep in a tent in freezing conditions with a newborn. That didn’t happen in a vacuum — it was a reaction to fear.

Yes, they made those decisions. But the pressure created by the police strategy played a part in those decisions. This wasn’t a case of someone hiding a body after a murder — this was a terrified new mother in crisis, being chased across the country. That’s a different context entirely.