Constance Marten case — I feel the police have some responsibility too

No, I disagree. I read the BBC article this morning about how they behaved in court, delaying the trial, refusing to attend, shouting, arguing, and Gorden choosing to represent himself which lead to him cross examining Martin (wtf?). They are clearly very disturbed, entitled people that feel the normal rules and laws of society don't apply to them. They are so wrapped up in themselves and each other they dont care about anything, even the life of a tiny baby. The police should have gone harder.

It’s worth considering at least how it’s approached in other European countries. I don’t have a dog in this race, but I do think that it is worth some thought.

I’ve answered ‘what the fuck’ the ‘pro adoption lobby’ is - the belief that adoption is always right regardless of the specifics of each case. The same dogmatic view can apply in reverse: the belief that adoption is always a wrong act. Both positions are problematic.

I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated.

Co-dependency is not love. Remember she was screaming ‘help me, help me’ to the paramedics after he pushed her off the first floor balcony and he refused to let the paramedics in to treat her.

Separation is the best thing for them. It’s a shame it took the death of a tiny baby to bring about the change.

I genuinely don't understand how people can possibly try to defend her?

My ex beat me, controlled me and emotionally abused me for 9 years. I put up with it because it was just me being harmed and I had no self esteem.

The moment he kicked my dog, I was done. I finished with him that day. I don't have kids but how can you even imagine endangering your own child just because you're desperate to stay in a relationship? I found my strength to leave because I didn't want my dog to be harmed. Surely if you have any kind of motherly instinct you would do the same (at least!) for a child??

Constance is no victim.

I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated.

Co-dependency is not love. Remember she was screaming ‘help me, help me’ to the paramedics after he pushed her off the first floor balcony and he refused to let the paramedics in to treat her.

Separation is the best thing for them. It’s a shame it took the death of a tiny baby to bring about the change.

Constance was quite unique in that not only did she have the support of the authorities to leave Gordan, but she also had an “unearned” income - there was no real barrier to her leaving Gordan and prioritising her kids other than herself. I wonder where her family play into all this? I had wondered why they didn’t have custody of her children?

It was probably more about rebellion than actually wanting to parent the baby. They probably bonded over how "it's us against the world" and "nobody tells us what to do".

Interesting question. I think that on balance the police probably did the right thing. If they'd been spotted by a member of the public earlier the baby could have been saved.
The whole case is very sad. Unfortunately I believe that Constance has Paranoid Personality Disorder (it's a complex disorder characterized by mistrust of people, lack of empathy/distance emotions, low self esteem). People with it tend to have experienced trauma. They develop it in late teens early twenties and it gets progressively worse. People with it usually cut themselves off from family and friends, won't engage with authorities easily. It's one of the hardest conditions to treat. It's extremely hard to help someone with it. Unfortunately, in order to cope, many turn to drink and or drugs too.

I have a sister with it and it is just really sad. Constance ticks a lot of the boxes for me.
Whilst not condoning what Gordon did as a teenager, one does have to wonder what led to his actions and whether a 40 year sentence (of which he served 20 years) was appropriate for a 14 year old child. His background also wasn't stable.
I thoroughly agree with the verdict. Their actions led to the death of their baby. However, it does raise the issue of responsibility. How much control did they have over their own very flawed decision making. It's very easy to judge them against the standards of normal people. They clearly weren't insane. However, neither were they fully sane. I think that the sentencing should reflect that.
I do actually feel sorry a bit for the fact that they will now be separated. However, hopefully it will be for their own good. And I do think that they deserve time behind bars. The reality is however, is that no one would choose to live like that and that this is a very complex case.

Her first child was not removed because of her parents' disapproval of the relationship! Where did you get that nonsense from?

From what I’ve read she could have been trying to help her get back on track after difficult teenage years ….

@BabyCatFace i was using the term used by the person I was replying to. What term would you use? Also I know my friend better than you!

@BabyCatFace i was using the term used by the person I was replying to. What term would you use? Also I know my friend better than you!

Please don't use the term forced adoption anywhere ideally but especially not where your friend can hear you

From what I've read in news articles her first childs removal was prompted by her affluent family's disapproval of her relationship and the removal was enforced when she fell out the window. Every child born afterwards was removed from birth - straight after labour. She never got much of a chance to be a mother before they were taken away. It must have been incredibly traumatic for her every time another child was taken immediately after birth. She was quite obviously doing everything she could to avoid that happening again and wanted a chance to be a mother. Also her involvement in the weird cult was orchestrated by her mother, who took her there on holiday and then conveniently left her naughty child behind with the religious kooks. Wealthy families don't ever really let their children grow up, there's always a level of control and entitlement coming from above. I know of a woman whose family took parental responsibility of her child in a private court case simply because they thought they could offer the child a more lavish lifestyle - more holidays, private schooling, tutors and private sports facilities. The woman, broken by the fact her grandmother was doing this, fell into a spiral of depression and walked away from the court case knowing she couldn't offer the same financial opportunities for her child. Then believing they were right (they were not! She's a wonderful mum). I see a lot of similarities here and do sympathise for Constance. Apart from the falling from a window and her partners criminal history I haven't read one thing that indicated her children should be removed - no drug or alcohol issues, no ss reports of inadequate housing, no domestic violence. The family didn't want her with him and that was the main reason it all started. She was eventually left to give birth in an air bnb in fear she would lose another child and had to flee to live in the wilderness to avoid the police manhunt. The police definitely hold some responsibility for the baby's death, so do her family and the social services.

Something that doesn't add up to me in this case is that CM didn't come from a poor family. Are we supposed to believe that she didn't have savings in the bank to dress her child adequately or pay for a flat or air b and b? Even if estranged from family, as an adult she would have had an income of her own somehow. Which makes me wonder if the partner had been financially abusing her or maybe the money was spent, maybe there are substance abuse issues. I keep thinking of Baby P and his mother being stoned out of her brains half the time; similar callous and unempathetic attitude. One big difference is CM is attractive and could easily find a better situation, on the surface of it.

This is not a lady from a poor backgrounds weighing !8 stone with no education or job prospects. I can only think something is very badly wrong here.