to think people with nice parents have no clue what toxic parents are like?

@LightDrizzle Thankyou for introducing me to an excellent word that Ive never encountered before. I will totally have forgotten it by tomorrow however. But for today its excellent because I can use it in a sentence. "Sadly there are far too many solipsistic people in our nation and I fear the number is rising."

I voted yanbu @pppaper. Its one of the reasons I kept quiet and secretive about my troubled childhood for as long as I did because I knew that the peers and adults, I knew wouldnt understand. I finally told an adult how desperately unhappy I was when I was 18. I still know many of my childhood friends now and alas although yes they are still very much my friends and I love them dearly they dont understand my childhood misery because happily for them - they had marvellous parents!

I don't think anyone on this thread thinks we are voting for parliament. It has a very clear title.

The OP (and many other people) have had the misfortune to be raised by toxic and/or abusive parents. The pain of it can last a lifetime and knowing you are not alone is important (whether you think so or not).

Your lack of understanding of the how that feels and the importance to people who have suffered difficult childhoods, suggests you are one of the lucky people who had good parents and a happy upbringing.

Your superior, sneering and dismissive attitude reminds me of my toxic mother. She thinks putting people down is clever too. She is also one of the most miserable and lonely people I know and it's all a consequence of the terrible way she has spent her life mistreating the people she should have loved most.

Unfortunately, people like you who are so dismissive of the pain that lasts well into adulthood for children of toxic parents, are probably the reason OP started this thread in the first place. She is seeking reassurance that she is not alone. I hope the results of the poll you think is so unimportant are helping her and others like her.

If you really want to know why it's so important, read some of the replies to this thread and try to be a bit more understanding.

I guess you are right. I can and do acknowledge that not everyone has good parenting. But I cannot begin to imagine the nuances of what that actually means.

It's a bit like my hearing loss. Friends and family understand it, as far as I explain it to them. But they struggle to understand the bits I don't necessarily talk about. usually because a particular circumstance has not arisen between us (stuff like don't try to talk to me when the sun/light is behind you, because I won't be able to lip read you)

And that's about something quite unlike how a traumatised child has grown up, that must be 1000 times harder to talk about.

I'm not sure what the answer is, I'm not sure the answer is for theses children to expose their trauma to all and sundry.

Most people don't care they are busy navigating their own family problems, or other problems.

I felt this in my bones @LolleePopp. I hear you.
I often think how differently my life would have turned out too. It is so grossly unfair.

💐

Try growing up in the so-called care system the amount of times I got asked what did I do that was so bad I ended up in care lol had some great stock answers for people

I was listening to a podcast about an honour killing. It struck me that we have a cultural habit of saying things like “parents love their kids” “mums only want wants best for their children”. The podcast quoted a study that found that 64% of honour killings were at the instruction of women.

We know people don’t always love their children, we have multiple cases where mothers have let boyfriends/girlfriends beat their child to death (sometimes joining in) or neglecting their children to the point of death or extreme harm. I don’t know why people don’t understand sometimes that those people exist at a low level too, people who just don’t love their children or even like them. You see it here on threads about poverty etc, some people will choose to buy things for themselves rather than feed and clothe their kids because they want to not because they lack support or education.

My mother was like that, she just didn’t love or like me. People struggle to believe that and assume I must have done something to deserve it. The vast majority of children want to be loved by their parents. I came across the idea of the jungian death mother which felt a bit close to the bone.

Yep. Totally. Been there done that with people who think I should speak to my sperm donor father and have tried to force contact BECAUSE FAHHHMMLLEE. He was a woeful father and I have nothing to say to him

I agree, very few people understand, unless they are in a similar situation with their parents. Lucky for them, I am pleased many people have lovely parents, sadly it wasnt to be for me. But I was very fortunate to find a lovely DH, who has always supported me and I have two sons, who are my absolute world, such wonderful people, and I have been also blessed with great friends too.

Well no, nobody can understand every possible different life experience other people have. I had lovely parents but some of my friends didn't. On an intellectual level I can understand what they went through, but I can't fully get in on an emotional level because it didn't happen to me. I don't tell them that they will miss their parents, but I think it is perfectly OK for me to say I miss mine or talk about how lovely they were. Just because they didn't feel loved by their parents doesn't mean they don't know how being loved or love someone feels. For example, I will also really miss my dog when he's gone, I don't think it's offensive of me to express that to someone who has never had a beloved dog.

We don't all have understand everything, I don't understand why we should. We just need to listen and be compassionate and understanding of the fact that people's lives are different.

The thing is - your post kind of ignores the middle ground.

I see people on MN all the time using terms like "toxic" or "narcissist" and they're basically meaningless in themselves. There is a spectrum from being critical and difficult to being full on abusive, and some people will use a term like toxic to describe a difficult, opinionated person and some will be talking about something much more serious.

It is also possible to make different choices about difficult family members without being an "enabler", a "doormat" or any other of therapyspeak descriptors you see on here.

I'll give an example..

My dad is probably what a lot of MN would label "toxic". He constantly shouted at and criticised us as children, and sometimes slapped us or threw away our toys. He did not let us have friends over. He had frankly ridiculous moral standards which led to him once threatening to call the police because he heard a male friend of mine make a mild innuendo to me when I was 15. When we grew up, he didn't come to my sister's wedding because he was at work. And lots more.

I think it is totally plausible that a lot MNers would cry "go NC".

I have made a different choice. The other side of the story is that DF is ND (yes really) and had a horrific childhood, including being locked in a cupboard routinely and his dad raping his big sister. There was no support for his ASD. Like many on here, parenthood hit him hard (he's not a patient person and not good with sleep loss). My younger sister was very very ill as a child. He focused on academic support and financial comfort because that was what he had missed in his own life.

As an adult, I find him difficult and limit time with him. But I also know he is a moral person with his own values and that he loves his children. Even if his behaviour to us was often borderline abusive.

The world isn't divided into lovely people and toxic people. I sometimes get very angry when I think of awful things my dad said. But I think when he's gone, there are things I'll also miss. That's real life too.

Yes, OP.
Emotionally detach, use these people for practical purposes.
If not worth while or impossible without you giving too much of your time and energy, go low or no contact.
And it's not your fault.

YANBU. I work with children in a safeguarding role. Most parents do their best, but the unpalatable truth is that some parents simply don't care, and a small minority are actually capable of tremendous cruelty towards their children.

Some people will understand, some won’t. Same as most things in life really. Being on MN has really opened my eyes to how bad it can be though.

YANBU at all.

The saying walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before you judge them is very apt for this. I had a very abusive relationship with my father. I didn’t tell anyone what had gone on until I was in my 30s due to fear, shame and thinking I wouldn’t be believed. When I’d tried telling someone when I was 12 I was accused of making it up.

When I was 18 and several years after my parents had divorced I was able to stop contact with him. For years I used to get the sort of remarks I’ve seen others mention from people who didn’t know what had gone on; two (and variations of them) that particularly got to me were, “you’ll regret the time you didn’t spend with him when he’s gone,” and, “you only have one Dad.” It was like I was the villain.
I went nuclear once or twice when speaking to people who came out with shit like that and from my reaction one would have thought they’d stop and think something must have happened for me to have reacted so dramatically. Oh no.
I wish I’d had the courage to lay it on the line with some of these people about my reasons for NC. I’d have the courage now but the truth came out during lockdown.
In fact remembering past unhelpful conversations with idiots about giving him a second chance was one of the things that drove me to snap.

Like stormroses had said earlier in the thread it’s best to not take advice from people who don’t understand or know about your situation.
Even if you have to be extremely abrupt and come across as rude, I would try and remove yourself from conversations with people who don’t understand about toxic parents.

I think part of it is because people are not perfect and are damaged by their own life experiences. As you get older, you realise that and forgive your parents a lot. My mother was stressed and emotionally unavailable for much of my childhood due to the demands of a busy job, a codependent toxic relationship with her own mother and having to do absolutely everything for the family (my DF is nice enough but probably ND and a bit useless in a generation when this was considered ok for men, whereas he wouldn't get away with it nowadays, I hope). Her mother was a loving parent in many ways, and proud of her children, but emotionally damaged by a childhood of extreme poverty and an absent father at a time when that carried a huge social stigma.

It takes a leap to get from 1) some people love their children but are flawed parents due to their personalities and/or circumstances, to 2) some people actually don't love or care for their children at all. It's very uncomfortable to acknowledge that parents like this exist.

Yeah I see on various toxic mother threads, some posters saying ‘oh you should just say XYZ’

basically something really cutting and blunt. They don’t understand that those of us with toxic mothers still live in a shroud of fear to an extent, plus anger, hatred of them at times etc! It’s just not possible to be blunt, assertive and confident towards somebody that you feared and intimidated you for all of your childhood and well into adulthood.

I'm listening....

Do you have a blog? Your writing is brilliant.

Just wait until they get old or go into care. You'll be treated like the devil incarnate if you're not bending over backwards to do everything you can to look after this 'sweet' old pensioner.

Agreed. Some people have no idea how lonely, terrifying and isolating it is without a safety net. My friends all have their parents as a safety net. Child care fallen through? Parents. Shoulder to cry on? Parents. Help moving house? Parents. Advice? Parents.

I was very lucky to have lovely parents who themselves had lovely parents. It wasn’t until I was in my 40s and started a new job after being a SAHM that I witnessed the damage that parents can inflict on their children. What I’m trying to say is, I worked with more than one person who had undiagnosed mental illness caused by being born to and raised by unfit parents

I see your bastard, cow and bitch, and raise you Jonah, jinx and bad luck omen. Why, thanks, mum.