Friends really annoying trait!

Surprise! Surprise! Woman has her own views and opinions that are sometimes different to yours!

You are being ridiculous and sound like you’d be controlling if she wasn’t able to stand up to you.

I didn’t say I was clever. I said my identity was built around it. I was praised a lot about being a clever child, top of my class and I internalised a lot of that and made “being clever” the key identifier of my personality and what I built self worth around.

You’ve got no idea how much therapy I’ve had to work through to understand my behaviour and personality.

Now stop being so judgy when people are being open and vulnerable with their identity politics.

In the context of the thread, it feels quite illuminating. As many have said, both OP and friend have annoying traits, so to paraphase your post - OP is annoying to her annoying friend. Nothing wrong with that either I guess, but not the recipe for a happy holiday, which was my point.

She is rude to rude posters. Nothing wrong with that.

I do it because a lot of my identity is built around being clever and I also appreciate efficiency - so i want you to understand what I’ve already thought of to save rehashing, and a bit to prove I’ve thought of it before you raise it.

I am speechless at the level of arrogance.

Why are you going on a holiday with her? It sounds like you have totally different holiday wishes and you are irritated at her normal behaviour (before even spending time together).
I think you need to re-evaluate the entire friendship. What exactly is she bringing you in this friendship? Are you really friends? Are you both clinging on to a friendship that once existed? Does one of you (or maybe both) have very little or no other friends, and you’re just clinging on to this friendship because otherwise you (or her) have no one else? It sounds like a very draining “friendship”. I wouldn’t bother bringing up her traits, because that’s who she is. You either accept her as she is or diminish contact and let this fizzle out.

Why are you going on holiday together? Sounds like a recipe for disaster

Voice messages are awful. Just have a fucking conversation. 😂

You both sound as though you annoy each other. I would not be going on holiday with her. Sounds a recipe for disaster!

I’ve appreciated this thread and it’s help me understand better these annoying traits in myself and in others I’m close to. I am sympathetic to you OP!

What does a positive and enjoyable conversation with your friend look like? What topics can you have a really good chat, exchange or laugh about?

Is the bad trait that she can't be controlled by you, she instead does what she wants and gives you a heads up and some polite reasoning as to why it won't work for her?

Not to show authority. To protect her core being from being attacked and diminished, as it always has been by her mother.

You may not be doing things from the same motive, but as a friend you should try to understand where this is coming from instead of judging her in the harsh way you currently are. You sound as bad as her in different ways - equally prickly and easily slighted.

Stop trying to suggest things to her. Just tell her what you are going to do and ket her got on with her thing. You are clearly on slightly different wavelengths about life and you need to accept that and just let more of it wash over you. Also, sometimes people say they want advice but they really don't, they just want to have a good old moan.

One thing you could say is “glad I helped you think it through” or “good to see you’re talking it through”. If it’s that external processing thing.

With the sea / mountains example, I’d say back “yes of course, you do the sea, and I’ll be doing a mix of sea and other things”. Acknowledging her and separating her thoughts from you.

Or laughing and saying “I’m not trying to debate it, just telling you my plans” or something.

I get it op especially after this post.
Some people have the need to have a closing statement. They don’t see in what context you are talking and they would use what you said as a topic of discussion for them to give a monologue on. Such people will never use simple phrases like ‘sounds good. They need to give their 50 cents / speech on everything. Especially in this scenario of bike and you wanting to split up sometimes to do own thing or asking you for a career advice, then shutting it down by voice note. Not following advice is ok but a long voice note to shut down a solicited advice is not so much.

I think you are projecting.
in first example, op suggested apart from
sea and cultural time they split up do do other things like hiking etc. Op didn’t ask friend to tag along for hiking, splitting up mean doing their own thing, so it’s not dictating.

i agree with you on 2nd one, friend has done nothing wrong to express her preference.

For 3rd one, op said it was not unsolicited advice. Friend would ask her for career advice.

In my experience, I am projecting too, voice note senders are annoying. This method is chosen by those who prioritise their time over the listener. Text takes more effort to write, while easier to read or go back to a sentence if you need clarity. Voice messages are drafted while doing something else, a walk, making tea, basically without the need of conscious effort. People tend to can go on. It’s better to talk on phone or send a text, where you won’t blabber away. For that reason I would say op is not unreasonable.

Regarding sea thing, OP’s suggestion was to
include some splt time where they can do whatever else they want to do. On which her friend replied, no it’s just sea. I think based on this example, OP’s friends sound dismissive.

But in second example, friend is not wrong to not want to do house-sitting.

You should’ve mentioned this in op. Because now posters are assuming that you are giving unsolicited advices.

It sounds like you’re both as bad as each other to be honest. From your original post you sound quite over bearing and she sounds quite defensive. I have a friend similar to how you sound, and in some ways I can respond like your friend does.
**

• Going to an island for our holiday and I mentioned as well as sea and cultural stuff there would be opportunities to split up and eg could go on some hikes, head to the mountains, etc. She did me a 2 min VM in which she basically reiterated "I mean for me, going here is about the sea, its going to be sea focused for me" over and over again. I was thinking... Yes... I get that, hence why we are going to an island 😅
• It sounds from this like you’re completely dictating the holiday. Assuming because she replied in a voice note, that you voice noted her in the first place telling her all about what exactly you will be doing on holiday, taking over completely. Telling her you can hike, see the mountains, do cultural things as well as swimming. She’s probably been sat rolling her eyes so hard as she listens to you, thinking you’re just taking over the whole thing. So she’s wanted to make a point of replying and telling you what SHE wants to do, jusy to remind you that you’re not completely dictating here.

• Again for the trip, we both do a lot of trusted housesitters, so I suggested nearer the time we could do a mix of accommodation options including trusted housesitters and she said "nope. It'll be a hassle, I want this to be about relaxation".

• I spent years suggesting a particular career change for her that was really in line with her skills and profile, she would always do these really lengthy VMs explaining why my idea was a bad one. Until 6 months ago when she suddenly had this epiphany that this would be a great option for her.
• I think I would also be rather irritated if one of my friends “spent years” suggesting a particular career change for me. I know you’re only trying to help. But she might not have wanted this. And might have been irritated by you and your suggestions. And it’s not the worst thing in the world that she came to realise this for herself, sometimes that just happens.

I can see why it's annoying but it also sounds like you can't really describe it very well, so if you can't explain it (without lots of examples) then I don't think you can bring it up. How would the chat go "there's this thing you do, I can't really explain it, it's a bit of a vibe or a tone sort of like that time when...." it just sounds really like you're nit picking and savingup all the things shes ever said that irritate you.
Also, it does take 2 to tango, why are you suggesting stuff to her over and over, if you raised that with me I'd say "I like to come up with my own ideas, and you kept repeatedly telling me what to do with my own life so I felt I had to keep defending myself to get you off my back". I've friend who does what you do, and last holiday she went on and on and on about how I should work in a different country, and instead of telling her to shut up because I didn't want to I kept saying "well the kids are settled and I don't fancy uprooting them, my business is here, my friends... the house etc" and she kept finding reasons why those things would be fine and we should all move to the USA until I snapped "I don't want to bloody move, I've no idea why you think I would want to please stop banging on about it ffs" and she told me I was very defensive, snappy and irritable. I apologised but inside i was seething because she had created the whole bizarre argument. Maybe before raising it, try some introspection as to why you might be creating this behaviour (it might entirely be her, but I suspect not)

I can’t really work out what your friend has done wrong? She doesn’t want to do the activities you are suggesting on holiday, she wants to lie by/swim in the sea. And she doesn’t want to house sit when it’s supposed to be a relaxing break - also fair enough. She is also entitled to decide she wants a career change and come to the same conclusion you did about what she might do next. None of this sounds annoying unless you don’t like her.

My advice is - don’t go on holiday with a friend that irritates you. Being together 24/7 for a week or so is a recipe for a major fallout. It happened to me, many years ago - went on holiday with a friend who kept asking me inane questions like what did she think she should wear, did I think it was going to rain, should she take an umbrella just in case, etc etc etc. I snapped after one too many of these questions and was a bit dismissive in my reply which resulted in her refusing to speak to me for the rest of the holiday, even after I apologised. Never saw her again after we got home.

Way to double down on being an insufferable trait... certainly not going to change any minds like that.

I have read the thread by the way, its very clear from the way you write as to your attitude and you proved it lol.

Neither of you seems compatible. You both sound difficult in your own different ways and I couldn't go on holiday with neither person you both sound absolutely exhausting. This is why I go away solo no one else to dictate to me what they think I should be doing. Going off my own timetable no stress. I can see now whats going to happen if the 2 of you go ahead with this holiday friendship will be over by the end of it.

There is no way to talk to her about this, because it is a really ingrained trait and she won't recognise she is doing it, let alone be able to stop it.

When she's leaving these long VMs, she's really going through it in her own mind. That's why she sometimes will suddenly change her mind and she thinks it's her own idea - because she's spent so long talking herself through the negatives (which has her considering the positives too, in order to negate them), that she forgets you've said anything.

She's probably quite set in her ways, and finds it hard to deviate from what she knows and believes. It's a safety thing (a comfort zone of the familiar), growing up with a hypercritical mother.

Can you tell I have a similar friend? I don't take it personally, tune out and crack on with some housework or cooking during the VMs/phone calls. When she criticises my choices (I am very impulsive even with large decisions) I say 'you're probably right, but I'm going to do it anyway'. It's fine, my friend is a good -hearted and well-meaning woman, and I'm sure she's tolerating something I do that is equally unconscious, ingrained and annoying.