Parents choosing not to vaccinate their children

My DSis and I didn't have the whooping cough vaccine due to the scare stories referred to by a pp whose daughter has lifelong side effects. DSis and I were fortunate - caught it but recovered (after a lot of coughing).

“I’m not an anti vaxxer but…"

See also “I’m not anti abortion but I just think it should be limited..." (to the point of being inaccessible.

There were not “huge risks” and there is not evidence of causal links between vaccines and subsequent episodes of illness. There is rather more evidence of causality between Covid and subsequent episodes of illness.
Covid was a new and serious disease which itself was not well understood. The vaccines were new so didn’t have the track record of eg Smallpox or measles but were tested on healthy volunteers (I worked with many of them) long before they were approved for use. Initial roll out was to those most at risk from Covid.

As @Parker231 points out 8 billion vaccinations and 55 deaths, only a few of that 55 have any real suggestion of a causal link.

As PP say - anti vax conspiracists were loud and furious long before Covid. As for “why would they do that” - follow the money. There is a lot of money to be made out of successful conspiracy theories. Hasn’t done Wakefield’s bank balance any harm - got him established on the celebrity circuit.

I had my children in the 90s. I had no trouble finding information on vaccines and their safety/risks/benefits. It was perfectly clear to read. It was also very evidence that it contained veriafiable data unlike the high temperature emotive bullshit from the antivax lobbies.

Yes and people damaged by polio are still with us. My parents, in their 80s, have a friend who is struggling with mobility in old age due to polio damage as a child (his joints have worn out due to asymmetric use).

I agree. I think there is generally less trust in medical professional. I wonder if some of is linked to a lack of continuity of care. My said when I was baby the GP popped round to see me. I don't think people know who their GP or health visitor is. Maybe it's feeling anxiety?

The NHS has recently managed to come up with clear, evidence based leaflets for the pros and cons of e.g. testing for colon and prostate cancer, smears, mammograms (picking out the leaflets DH and I have received) so they absolutely could address questions about childhood vaccinations in a more evidence-based way. As the research I linked to earlier stated, a big part of the problem is access to GP services is difficult for everyone whatever it is they're trying to access and parents aren't clear what's due when.

Sometimes the guidance changes too. DD had to have a polio booster when she was about 10 due to an outbreak in London.

Smallpox 1796
measles 1963

how long do you want or wait for side effects ?

I’m sure they do, they just hope it won’t be them or their children. But it’s the “I’ve made it to 40yo without ever getting measles” that annoys me, when they don’t mention the fact that it’s down to the multiple million people around them who are vaccinated. Otherwise it would be a very different story.

I have friends and relatives who are militant anti-vaxxers. I've stopped talking to some of them, as I can't listen to this shite. They think vapour trails from ordinary aircraft are spraying them. There's one cousin I laugh at. He's really stupid and won't shut the fuck up. I don't care what their opinions are, but I'm not going to listen to this lunacy.

One of my friends daughters can't be vaccinated for some reason. Other than that, all the sane people I know have their children vaccinated.

The risk would be there for longer than it currently is and for no reason because nothing suggests that younger babies' bodies can't cope with vaccinations.

Some of the thinking of anti vax mums is this -

Everyone else vaccinates so I don’t need to.

They are smug, thinking their child will be safe because everyone else vaccinated.

Most vaccines have been around for a long time.

I don't understand why so many people question vaccines yet eat processed junk every day, will quite happily take medication such as ibuprofen or if diagnosed with a more serious illness will without hesitate take any prescribed drugs - many of which have much more serious side effects. Like any medication, there are risks - however the risks of measles - one of most highly infectious diseases on the planet are far worse. I do wonder if we'd have the same anti-vax sentiment if Ebola was a thing in the Western World.

Whatever fuels some parents’ reluctance to get their children vaccinated, I think re-introduction of the possibility of single jabs for measles, mumps and rubella could significantly increase uptake. I don’t know why there isn’t the choice at least. Single jabs have been completely outlawed for some reason, probably financial and commercial.

For right or wrong, the MMR has been tainted in a lot of people’s minds, and the mistrust doesn’t seem to be going away for large swathes of the population, so why not go with the flow? Surely better to have the separate jabs (albeit with some disadvantages), for those with misgivings, than none at all? I think a bit of psychology wouldn’t go amiss. People always respond better to choice than coercion.

I personally would feel more comfortable if they got vaccines at a later age - if most people were getting vaccinated then there would be less risk of them contracting diseases.

I can understand that but at the same time, parents with immunocompromised children simply want the chance to watch them grow up at all.

I think it's really tricky and caveat with the fact that both of our children, grown up now, were vaccinated.

DS was born at the end of 1994 when there was a little debate about an association with DTP and the development of allergies.

When my HV called when the baby was 12 days old I asked what her role was and was told she was responsible for making sure my baby was vaccinated. This surprised me because I thought that responsibility lay with my DH and me.

I told her I was pro vaccination but would like some information about the DTP/allergy link. Her response was oh I don't know, I only know what's in the leaflets, and yet here was a health professional telling me they were responsible for vaccinating my child. I asked her if she could please, as she was responsible for vaccinating my child, pont me towards the research.

What she did was write to the area's child immunologist to ask him to provide an appointment because I was concerned about vaccinating my child due to his breathing problems. (He had none).

I think sometimes the system does not support genuine questions or facilitate the sharing of evidence based research and this undermines the system's transparency and allows conspiracy theories to arise.

My child was vaccinated, I did not waste the time of the immunologist and I never say a health visitor again - what was the point, if they were incapable of correctly recording information.

I suspect there may be an infinitesimal risk. I think it is important that any such risk is clearly explained and that parents are facilitated to make the correct decisions balancing the probabilities of those risks.

Sadly, what will make the herd turn is tragedy rather than reason but the medics and public health people need to bear in mind their part in the tragedy and the lack of clear and balanced information.

But the vast majority of babies' bodies do cope with vaccinations perfectly fine. It would leave them more vulnerable to vaccine preventable illnesses for longer such as whooping cough etc wouldn't that concern you more?

Absolutely, proactive and very sensible, far better to achieve the desired result with options which address the blocks to vaccination

I saw a short clip of a paediatrician in the US explaining why he didn't accept unvaccinated patients. So, he was turning away little kids who needed help, and he would be paid for treating them.

It's because the risks are too great to the patients he has, who are vaccinated. The blame lies squarely with the parents (who are reading dross on the internet). Society provides us with a means to protect ourselves and others, and really can't do much more on that score. But society doesn't have to knowingly endanger its members. It is a bloody shame, it really is. But what can we do except try to persuade people to look at facts? To understand that they're being taken for a ride by egos who write crap on the internet?

Re the MMR vaccine, giving them together shortens the time the child is unprotected. Separating the vaccines lengthens that time.
As for overloading the immune system, how many bugs do you think a child could encounter during a day unless you keep them in a sealed bubble?

I didn’t take this unconfirmed situation as ‘fact’ , but it did give me pause for thought. It was a senior, highly experienced doctor who stated that in his medically experienced opinion the reason my husband was so very unwell was that there was an acute situation in his immune response which was exacerbated by having several vaccines administered at the same time. I know that children are not administered yellow fever with their vaccinations. However, my point is that perhaps it is exactly these sort of situations which need greater education and guidance for the lay person as to why the childhood immunisations would differ from my husbands vaccination experience. I had taken his medical advice and opinion. As previously stated I am pro vaccination and my son is vaccinated.

Did the doctor explain how she developed an intolerance? It is possible she would have developed this without getting covid or getting another virus. It is not unusual start to experience a decline in lactase as children grow - This is mainly genetic.

It’s very difficult because these are children from families that we don’t want to isolate further. These parents are flat out negligent. They prioritise their own right to be stupid over their child’s safety. We want their children to have access
to other opinions and grow up to possess
more robust intellects than their parents.

If you google 'double blind vaccine trials' you will immediately see that your statement is untrue. Where did you read that there haven't been any? That is a lie, unfortunately.

Vaccines have been around for centuries, not a few decades.

And childhood diseases were killers. That is why vaccines were developed.

All of this information is actually taught in a basic secondary science class.

It’s widely acknowledged that babies have more sensitive skin due to their thinner epidermis and immature skin barrier, making them more vulnerable to irritants and environmental factors. Similarly, infants can’t digest solid foods properly until their digestive system has matured enough, usually around 4 to 6 months of age. This developmental timeline reflects the fact that many of their bodily systems including digestive, immune, and metabolic are still in a critical phase of growth and adaptation.
Given this, it seems contradictory that we often expect babies’ bodies to cope with vaccines and other immune challenges in the same way as older children or adults, despite their physiological immaturity.

I am ware Vaccines are specifically designed with this in mind: they contain precisely measured amounts of antigens and adjuvants that safely stimulate the infant immune system without overwhelming it. However, I think I would feel comfortable with administering vaccines when the baby’s body is more matured.