Nursery hand over comment. Would you complain?

@DonnyBurrito i did say rude was an opinion!

However, not one person has ‘ignored’ child development, especially the professionals amongst us!

what we have done is use our expertise and experience, to explain what we mean. All of which has been largely ignored by @Blessthismess2 and her perfect parenting!

Exactly. Thank you!!

I feel sorry for @Blessthismess2banging her head against the proverbial wall in this thread, and I'm impressed she hasn't gotten frustrated with childcare professionals seeming to largely ignore current child development understanding and/or what an opinionated word is. I guess that's because she's well aware that she is correct and can articulate it well.

As @Blessthismess2has said, 'rude' is cultural, but it is also 'class' orientated and can be very individual. There are lots of made up rules British society has about what is rude and what is not. To expect a 3 year old to 'not be rude' to proper British standards is mental.

Here are some ways to describe 'rude' behaviour in a 3 year old who is very much in the early days of developing their understanding and personality:

• distracted or unfocused
• uncooperative
• interrupting
• over excited

These are the words I would expect to hear in an adult to adult conversation about 'rude' behaviour (not about biting or pushing or outright aggression).

Possibly because they are (excluding ND):

• frustrated
• tired
• hungry
• out of routine
• overstimulated
• mentally exhausted
• poorly
• hot
• missing their parent or caregiver/s

There's always a cause in an otherwise happy and cooperative child.

However, I really do empathise with my nursery staff, so on hand over (while my child is present) if they say "he's been a bit grumpy today" or "we've had a bit of cheekiness" or "he was being a bit silly" I am extremely grateful for their patience, and I don't think they are wrong. I think they've been dealing with 15 pre-schoolers for 8+ hours and they don't have the energy or need to formulate a complex behaviour analysis during the 60 second hand over that my son is present for. He's not like that all day every day, so it's then my job to use that snippet of information to try and decode what he's been feeling at nursery and why. Often that's just a chat or two with him that encourages empathy and understanding for himself and others, perhaps followed by a few tweaks to practical things. The word 'rude' would never come into it, but we are fine with 'bad mood/grumpy/silly' - ie states of being that a 3 year old can actually understand and are appropriate. 'Cheekiness' isn't a word we really use at home, but I assume it's nursery shorthand for a combo of uncooperative and over excited.

Thank you anonymous poster on the internet, for your feedback on my children you have never met 😂.

I assure you that no professional / practitioner who has ever encountered them has ever thought for a moment that they have behavioural challenges.
The feedback that I consistently receive is that they are exceptionally well behaved, cooperative, kind, pro-social, popular with children and teachers alike. None have ever been violent to another child in nursery or school. My eldest- despite being social and outgoing in some ways- is also v conscientious, self conscious and shy and doesn’t like to draw attention to herself - positive or negative. We all have different personalities.

However, this thread is not about my children is it?

But your children do have behavioural challenges, just of a different sort than the child in the OP. Practitioners can tell the difference between "impeccably behaved" and so anxious they are scared to do anything. Your child's are doing you both a disservice if they aren't speaking to you clearly about this. You're making that posters point very well, and you don't even seem to realise it.

I Would like to point out that working with 3 year olds requires endless patience and I think previous posters are frustrated with a non-early years practitioner coming on and talking about toddlers who shouldn’t be referred to as rude.

yes I can understand that, but this was a thread where we were invited to share our opinion on whether this language was appropriate to describe a 3 year old. I don’t think it was.

You say you have exceptionally well behaved children, any parent I’ve ever heard say that is the type of conceited parent that makes our job harder.

I would like to point out that the only reason I said this was because I had repeatedly been accused by pp’s of having the opinions I do because I’m a “terrible parent” and therefore I have horribly behaved , rude, violent children. This was used to discredit me as a person so that my views could be more easily dismissed.
After this was said several times I decided to share the actual context- because it’s true.
I’m not the sort of person to go around bragging about my children by any means, and the comments about my children’s behaviour comes directly from teachers , other parents and also children. I don’t happen to think I’m anything special as a parent, I think it’s more to do with their personalities- the first for example is quite anxious and shy- she doesn’t like attention so she would be mortified to do anything wrong that would bring negative attention on her at school.

However, if my children did have behavioural challenges, I would 100% be standing behind them to ensure that those responsible for their care and development treated them in an age / development appropriate manner and without projection and judgement. It’s the least any parent can do for their child.

I understand that being a teacher can be hard , but so is being a 3 year old, or a teenager, or any child. The difference is a teacher is an adult, with professional responsibilities that they are paid for, who’s chosen to be there and to work with children.

I know there’s a fashion these days for viewing children/ young people as horrendously behaved and blaming it on modern parenting. I don’t see that at all. Modern parenting techniques have their flaws- being completely impractical much of the time is one. But there’s actually a lot of wisdom in them too, and some of it is really important for raising emotionally intelligent kids, and avoiding many of the very harmful parenting practices of the past.

We do have an epidemic at the moment of poor mental health amongst CYP- which no doubt has a range of complex causes . I’m actually really concerned about teacher attitudes on mumsnet (I haven’t actually encountered these in real life- but again that’s maybe because I have well behaved children) . I have heard first hand the profound negative impacts these attitudes can have on self esteem and wellbeing in vulnerable teenagers.

As for a 3 year old being a toddler- clearly people understand the word in different ways 🤷🏼‍♀️, but most resources state 1-3 is a toddler. It’s neither here nor there to the substance of the conversation.

@Blessthismess2 I can see where you’re coming from in the sense that 3 year olds aren’t rude, they are young children imitating what they see. I
Would like to point out that working with 3 year olds requires endless patience and I think previous posters are frustrated with a non-early years practitioner coming on and talking about toddlers who shouldn’t be referred to as rude.

You talk about negative attitudes towards young people causing mental health problems but I think the new approach of being gentle with children and not telling them or being firm, in fear of upsetting them, to be just as damaging.

You say you have exceptionally well behaved children, any parent I’ve ever heard say that is the type of conceited parent that makes our job harder.

Im always wary of any self proclaimed experts in
older children who make errors such as use toddler to describe a 3 or 4 year old.

I’m not calling the child innapropriate- it was a description of the words. What I have been objecting to on this thread is people calling a three year old child “rude”, “unpleasant”, having “an attitude”.

And I think you're unbelievably wrong on that last point.

I actually don’t think I am.

Kids need firm guidance and boundaries

Yes they absolutely do. But what they absolutely don’t need - like a hole in the head - is judgement and labels, assigned to them through age innapropriate adult projection, and without the full context. I happen to work in a relevant field and was listening just last week to teenagers with challenges talk about how they experienced teachers’ attitudes towards them at school and how this affected their self worth. It was totally heart breaking.

And we’re not talking about troubled teenagers here , were talking about children in nursery school. Three years old. Three! 🤯

@2chocolateoranges @Digdongdoo @Dontlletmedownbruce

Bless this mess is clearly the OPs friend! Or similar. It’s just not worth it! Several have tried. With their experience and still they disagree and their experience is incorrect! They are not for changing! I implore them to get a job in education and then come back to us in a few months time. They are the perfect parent and raised the perfect kids…think Bree Van de Kamp if you remember desperate housewives (though fictional we all know what happened there!!) but they are the reason so many educators are leaving in their droves!

They are (one of) the reason(s) why despite pumping tens of thousands into my degree, resources, the time an effort at the detriment of my own DC, I am thinking of leaving teaching within the next ten years! Because, in 3 years I will be the wrong side of forty and I will be damned if I’m going to start accepting that people who never say no to their kids, have the right to have a go over whether I should ‘speak to’ not ‘shout at’ a child about what is acceptable!

After reading yiur last reply. I'm calling it a day for this thread, you would argue that black was white just for the fun of it. Ypu are definitely getting a kick out of it but this is my work, that i would so hard at.

Oh and we would never say could you do x,y or z at home we would ask the parent what they would do and then we would make suggestions too.

I'm so glad that parents like you are so far and few between. We have a couple who we all try and dodge at pick up time because they have a comment or complaint about EVERYTHING!

Because nobody is known for having exceptionally well behaved children. Known by who? By what metric?
Why can you call a word "inappropriate" but not rude? You're just being pedantic. Arguably a 3yo is far more capable of grasping rudeness than appropriateness.
And lets please remember that this wasn't a private conversation if OP was in earshot. Nursery were probably being diplomatic because others were around. You probably would have liked it even less had nursery gone into great detail of all the rude things child said and all the things OP friend obviously isn't doing about it at home.
And I think you're unbelievably wrong on that last point. Permissive parenting is why kids are struggling. Kids need firm guidance and boundaries. We cannot deal with the cause of poor behaviour if we are too scared to identify it in the first place.

I really don't think that is a thing

why?

Have your DC actually attended nursery?

yes.

How would you have nursery communicate that a child has been hurling insults around all day and disobeying instructions for the sake of it? well for a start I’d remove the “for the sake of it”. This is exactly what I’m talking about. Wtf?

I completely fail to understand why you can’t describe the behaviour without assigning judgement , bad intentions or labels. Why can’t you just say “your child has been using these innapropriate words. This is how we’ve been managing it. At home could you…”

Honestly if these are the attitudes towards three year olds these days, no wonder so many kids have such poor mental health .

Be thankful you have very well behaved children as many children do not have the guidance that your children obviously have had.
This week alone my colleague has a black eye, as a child kicked them when being spoken to about using gentle hands and yes this was a 4year old.

Also you have previously mentioned how absurd it is taking to parents about behaviour but then you suggest that we need to speak to parents about behaviour. So you're even confusing yourself.

I don't label any children but I speak factually to parents about my concerns in the hope that we can work together.

If you want to do my job for a day ill happily swap and we can see how amazing a practitioner you are when you are faced with challenging behaviour.

Honestly after this thread I'll be looking for a job in Tesco, must be easier than dealing with parents who know my job better than me!

Is anybody really known for having exceptionally well behaved children? I really don't think that is a thing. Have your DC actually attended nursery?
How would you have nursery communicate that a child has been hurling insults around all day and disobeying instructions for the sake of it? Is there really a nice way of saying that? And how do you know that nursery are wrong about the child's intentions? They've been there all day, so it's not just baseless labels and assumptions.

interesting as I’m known for having exceptionally well behaved children, and have had nothing but glowing feedback from any setting they have attended to date.

What do I suggest you do? Well firstly accept that 3 year olds are only just staring to develop impulse control and emotional regulation and have a long long way to go before they have the physical development, cognitive and emotional maturity and social awareness and experience to self regulate and to understand the consequences and impact of their behaviour on others.

Furthermore , you will be aware of course that different children develop at different rates and some will be even further behind.

Of course you should speak to parents about managing behaviour , but I absolutely fail to understand why you think you are unable to do so without imposing age inappropriate labels and value judgements on the child’s intentions? When they are 3? I’m not understanding this at all,

You honestly make me laugh so much. No wonder so many children have problems with boundaries and behaviour when there are parents about with your attitude and mindset.

So what do you suggest we (every nursery I've worked in) as early years workers do when a child is repeatedly showing negative behaviour?

Just accept it or speak to parents and discuss strategies to assist?

Please tell me what you advise so that I can go into my work tomorrow and suggest it to all the other highly qualified early years workers that I work with. Please remember this is repetitive negative behaviour eg swearing, hitting, spitting.

Im intrigued.

@Blessthismess2 thanks for the link but I have a degree in early years education and many years experience. Remember a parents perspective is very different, they know their child in a home environment, most children behave differently in a school type setting. Of course all children are unique but there are still patterns and types of behaviour and personality. Nursery staff can vary in terms of experience and education and personal opinion on behaviour, but the thing they are experts on is observing how a particular child behaves in a group setting in relation to their peers. Sometimes this expertise is diminished by parents who think they know more based on experience of one or two children. If someone observes that your child is behaving differently to their peer group, then alarm bells need to start ringing.

God absolutely not! If that was my child, I’d be following up at home immediately. My 4 year old was silly at nursery a couple of weeks ago, and I had a long chat with her at home about her behaviour, then checked in with her key worker after that to check she was behaving herself! None of this ‘my child can do no wrong’ crap.

Parents like this are SUCH a pain in the arse (and there are so many more of them than when I started teaching!).

This is honestly just so weird to me for a nursery school setting to be talking like this. It’s nursery!!!! “Having to talk to parents” about children “having an attitude”. Wtaf,

Totally agree the majority of 3 year olds do know how not to be rude, have attitude or be violent to others. Also there is a huge difference between being just 3 or being 3 nearly 4.

having to talk to parents at pick up time regarding behaviour is few and far between.

www.pbs.org/parents/thrive/toddlers-and-self-control-a-survival-guide-for-parents

Ah well I really disagree. I guess OP’s friend does too.

Imagine being one of two adults in room of 22 3 yr olds. Thankfully the overwhelming majority do have impulse control, do not back answer staff, do not hit or bite or physically attack their classmates and are generally just lovely. They can follow direction, if given clearly and can sit down and listen for a limited period. They can put coats and shoes on and off, wash hands, wipe bums, tidy up toys, open and close lunchboxes and many can pour water from a jug to a cup. I think you have a very low expectation of 3 year old behaviour.

Oh, for goodness’ sake. My 3 year old knows fine well when she’s being rude.

It isn't like that at all. 3yos lack the biological urge to flirt. They absolutely do possess the ability to be mean if they want to.