Seriously thinking about leaving the UK

Oh I read this article too. Their sums were NONSENSE (as the comments below the line quickly revealed) and they also had not done their homework on other issues (e.g. their children’s entitlement to French nationality). Overall they were idiots who would have lost money either way.

I wish I could leave the planet let alone the country.

If you're rich enough you're immune to all the destruction our leaders are doing to our countries.

That may well be true of the Dutch, but I can assure you many of them do move to other countries to live. There are quite a number of them in my small rural NZ town, and they have been emigrating here for many years.

Stop watching the news and start living your life. You won't find what you're looking for in another country.

@Namitynamename yep - was similar in Denmark , except the nicer houses were a fair bit cheaper ( less demand from expats working for UN and big corporates etc )

Its flatter (in every sense of the word). Most rented property is housing associations I think, and a significant portion of that is for lower incomes on subsidised housing. So you can have two people on very different incomes living on the same street. (It's not that there aren't "deprived" areas. But deprived by the standards of say the Hague, is not deprived by American standards.or even UK standards). But on a higher income you probably won't see the "benefit" of earning more than your neighbour.to the same extent. And coming from abroad to rent you are paying top price - probably a lot more than your neighbours would. However, you would also benefit from tax.breaks.
I actually think this it feels healthier as a society but it only really works because the majority of people are gone with it (they like to think they are egalitarian/don't have a class structure. They do, and there is snobbery but you have to pretend there isn't). However, there is still a shortage of housing (as in the UK) and the price of property is crazy and it's difficult for young people to get on the housing ladder.

What I find interesting is that they offer tax breaks to high earners coming from abroad for a set period of time (lots of local people do reset this). The gamble is, after this time, many of the high earners will happily stay on and continue to pay tax at a higher rate. And lots do. So I don't think "tax rises = wealthy people leave the UK" is so obviously what's going on. I think what makes people stay and feel they have a good quality of life is more complicated than that.

@Namitynamename as someone who considered Utrech /Haarlem/the Hague just pre Brexit to live ( we went to Copenhagen instead for 20 months and then had to come back for elderly relative reasons) I can attest to that, certainly from a renting angle, very expensive ( more so than ‘nice’ areas in UK , and not always very great quality either , particularly if you want a house , also a blooming incredibly expensive nightmare if you want to run a decent car and health is’pay in’ . Kind of place that I feel works better if you have a corporate relocation too with expenses paid!! - we worked out that we simply couldn’t afford it as my H wasnt prepared to live in a 2 bed flat and have no car - Copenhagen even factoring in more expensive in what you had to buy in shops etc actually worked out more affordable as much better and more affordable housing , free healthcare and much cheaper to lease a car - same was true in Sweden - I think often people just look and think ‘ooh beer and eating out are cheaper’ and take things at face value - it’s very different indeed if you live somewhere. I do like Netherlands but realistically I know that it’s pretty costly to have same lifestyle as even UK

I think renters also have more rights - and freedoms to paint/add mezzanines to rooms with high ceilings etc in Germany.

Scandinavia isn’t as sunny days and rainbows as it’s reputation suggests, and urban planners have often got it wrong, e.g. with the creation of immigrant “ghettos” in Sweden, and then the issue of tearing communities apart when they’ve later tried to disperse people from the ghettoised blocks….

I meant to say they do invest a lot of money into community. Both in terms of urban planning (I think the Dutch do it better than anywhere) and in lots of grants etc to people wanting to do community activities/initiatives. It's depressing but while maybe they always do it better you can really see the divergence as "austerity" became a policy in the UK. It's a working example of how spending money can bring social good. Renters have much more rights. But housing is still an issue

Basically Margaret Thatcher was wrong. There is such a thing as society...

Im also a hypocrite in this regard by the way.
And there are downsides. One of my friends (no Dutch) was dating a Dutch guy and they were quite disparaging of the fact she liked opera - it was portrayed as being stuck up/thinking she was too good or something. Obviously not all Dutch people are like that. But there are downsides to being "somewhere" people and downsides to being "everywhere" people.**

No house prices are a nightmare.and source of much political tension. As here.

@EdisinBurgh it’s definitely a problem in many more expensive parts of the country - my son genuinely wants to stay in London - his gf is south east London born and bred and has always lived there - they have lived there 6 years - unless he buys a shared ownership (considering this) or carry’s on renting they are a bit stuffed- even in areas like Bromley or Enfield etc as they are moderate earners but hard working . -

I like this description about Dutch culture and that people stay close to their families and long standing friendship groups. Very attractive especially for old age.

Possibly linked to house prices too? Ie easier to live where you grew up, working in a regular suburban job, being an active part of a community you’ve always known. It sounds very appealing and safe.

Community seems core to a good life regardless of income (assuming basic income = adequate standard of living) - and perhaps what needs strengthening the most in the UK.

@Namitynamename it was the same in Copenhagen too - both my neighbours parents in tgeir70s still lived in Copenhagen . - in flats!!

@EdisinBurgh and the ignoring of carers (or their demonisation as benefits sponges) plays into this too. According to many on Mumsnet, someone who gives up their job and reduces their income to care for a vulnerable family member is basically at fault for not being a contributor to the economy/ tax income. But we need people willing to do that for society to function.

I think everywhere is dealing with an aging population and the issues which come with that. That said in NL lots of Dutch people are surprisingly parochial in the sense of people tend to stay closer to where they were.born,.hang out with the exact same friendship groups through life. You could mark that as having less ambition ( frowned upon in the UK and even more in the US) but it means children are.nearer.their parents as they age. Older people are also nearer their own friendship group/support network. So quality of life seems better for older people.
Its a trade of between ambition/earning as much as possible and quality of life/staying with what you love and making it better. Just as there is a trade of between paying less tax and having nice public services. Other countries can look better but there is usually a reason/tradeof they made.

Of course, leaving for another country because older people seem to have a better quality of life is ironic if the reason older people have better quality of life there is due to being around family and friends.

There are care homes in Sweden too, and home carers that come to your home a few times a day if you prefer that. The cost of living in a care home in Sweden is based on your income/pension but the average is around £900/month and that includes everything from rent/care/food etc. I think you might pay extra for medication. If you are on a low pension you pay less. If you choose to live at home and have carers come to you, you pay a maximum of £200/month for the care.

This, and the heavily subsidised childcare/parental leave is why most Swedes don't mind paying high taxes.

Plus the centre of Dublin is dangerous!

I have an Italian friend who had a parent in a care home in Italy and a German friend who had an aunt in a care home in Germany. Both families have lots of money. Both my friends live in London, I don’t know if other family members were on hand for the old folk

What about loneliness, isolation and neglect for old people? These are other aspects of modern life in Britain I worry about.

Families being less involved and present with their elderly parents (perhaps having moved away). Widowed elderly people living out their days with little care and company especially from their extended families.

Do the other countries listed in this thread as having a better quality of life than the UK, also face these issues?

...terrible stories in the UK too.

Covid strained every aspect of care, wherever you lived.

In France Social care is integrated into hospital care, so you don't get the frantic searching for a care package when a patient is medically fit.

They also go for the worst case scenario, so go to the GP with a bad back and you'll often get a scan, then its Physio/pain killers.

@RealLifeClanger I loved living in Copenhagen - and we used to go to Sweden a lot too - it would suit some but not others, it’s high tax and expensive but you get a lot for your tax in my opinion- it’s very ordered . They do have issues too but the basics work well

Care homes are not unique to britain. Whether they are better or worse on other European countries I don't know. But I do remember a huge number of very sad stories about care homes across Europe during covid.

This thread is so hilarious. People wanting to leave the UK in search of a better life.....because there are too many immigrants in our country who left their countries in search of a better life. Couldn't make this shit up. I hope you all like being an immigrant in another country! I don't suppose the natives will like it though, although you'd of course say you are an "ex pat" not an immigrant, right?😂