To think ChatGPT et al will put lots of counsellors and therapists out of business

Even AI experts don’t trust AI. Why would you trust fragile mental health/ emotions to it?

Which is how you end up with a pro-ana chatbot on the National Eating Disorders website.

Mentally ill people are not always the best judges of whether a chatbot’s advice is good or not.

Yes I agree. 6 months ago my FiL was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and my MILs Alzheimer’s ramped up so me and DH took on their care and running about, running ourselves in to the ground with the daily dramas. They make caring for them very difficult and it is constant daily stress. At the start my DH started putting both their symptoms into Chat GPT and also how he was feeling, asked how to handle situations, whether he thought his mum needed proper carers, should his dad have treatment, should his dad go home or stay in the hospice, how the disease would progress. Over time it’s really got a grasp of the situation and has provided invaluable advice, most notably was how to handle the situation with our children and what we should tell them and allow them to witness (such as MiL aggressive behaviour which is getting worse). It now asks DH how he is and suggests how he should cope and how to speak to the people involved. It has provided advice about how to deal with social services etc. I have been amazed to be honest as I was sceptical. I hope you are doing OK and if you can use Chat to help you I think that’s fantastic.

it gets feedback all the time from millions of users, and within your own chats with it, from you. That's the point.

I do get very frustrated with the broad anti AI rhetoric. What is far more important is for people to learn how to use it, and what it's limitations are. Just like when th einternet first came along, so many people thought it was all rubbish and would rot our brains etc, and we all had to learn how to use it. Of course, lots of people still haven't figured that out so I guess the chances are that AI will be the same.

But it is a powerful tool, improving constantly, and becoming more embedded constantly so we're all going to have to learn to adapt.

It doesn’t just reflect back what you said, it offers insights. I’ve been using it to ‘talk’ to about my recent cancer diagnosis and it’s been bloody brilliant. It’s made me feel much better about my way of coping and suggests things to try etc.

A previous poster said that it was just an algorithm - please look up the training for PWP in Talking Therapies services…

I’m sorry that your previous therapeutic experiences didn’t provide you with what you need. Unfortunately human connection is complex; it takes time to build trust and each therapist is as unique and individual as each client so it can be challenging to find the right ‘fit’.

I think AI can be useful in lots of ways but it cannot ever be empathetic or accepting. It does not emote and it is not ethical. It draws on information, both correct and incorrect, and will misrepresent that information in order to please you. It’s an artificial connection that has a place in our lives, but it will not replace real acceptance, care and love offered by good therapists.

How can we even know that the OP is a human being who has really done this? There has been a similar thread for the past few weeks, each going over the same ground. I am suspicious that this is a marketing tool not a real attempt at conversion.

How are you measuring "better"? Where's the feedback loop so that the AI can discern which of its outputs are good, and which ones are bad?

LIke all tools, and technology (including AI) is a tool, it's about the way it's used.
For myself, if I wanted proper therapy, I would 100% go to an actual therapist. I was the person upthread saying that actually, I do NOT think that AI will make therapists go out of business.

However, I think that this can be a very useful tool, used correctly and it's particularly useful for short term, minor things. I do concede however that there are many people who don't understand how to use tools like this, and that is more of a concern.

I have found it very helpful at times. And while I appreciate the "empathy" is not real, nonetheless the experience of it for me IS real. It has helped me to articulate and understand some of DS' sensory processing issues for example. A friend uses it for work coaching and support. DS, who was an overweight child and still remembers that even as he's a tall, slim, sporty teen told me that he uploaded a photo the other day becuase he didn't believe me that he was fit and healthy and in great shape.

If your therapist ISN’T challenging you/helping you to reframe things, you are essentially paying £200 per hour for a cup of tea and pat on the head.

If that is all you want, fine, use a chatbot. But that is not therapy.

Many people using chat gpt for therapy are being pushed further into psychosis and mania. I’ve seen people falling deep into spiritual delusions.

It’s a dangerous trend. I don’t agree with AI use for this sort of thing or in fact most things.

Let's remember also that AI is big money, stock market investing/betting, there's ALOT of vested interest in pushing AI and getting great reviews out there and normalising it - so I'm very skeptical when I see articles about how great it is and how it will replace X/Y/Z

Chatgpt and technology can put pretty much everyone out of business if people decide to do a diy job, the thing is I think there’s a huge difference between a face to face interaction where you read people’s reactions and feel their empathy as opposed to something like chatgpt. Alsoo ok the physical act of leaving the house, sitting down with a person as opposed to a further isolation by just typing is huge

I'm so glad that it worked for you when you felt in crisis, but no, I think there will still be a need for therapists.

A lot of the value of therapy and counselling is in the human element, in the judicious use of silence, in the spaces where people can deeply reflect on their experiences and thoughts. If I was in need of help (maybe excluding an acute crisis), I would choose a therapist for the reasons above. I find chatGPT responses sometimes formulaic and inhuman (personal view). ChatGPT won't pick up on body language/visual cues. AI may have a place for low level support e.g. online CBT but I can't see it being so widely used for more intensive treatments.

But why would you want to talk to something that has no empathy? And something that is not medically recognised as proper treatment for people who are genuinely suffering with their mental health, and which is probably doing more harm than good in the long run?

My two degrees are in sociology and I would love to get back into working as one given all of my above post. But I can't find a way in after so much time out

But still not good! If it is “learning” but without any insight or objectivity, or are simply learning false facts, it is harmful.

the National Eating Disorders Association helpline had a chatbot. It “learned” how to give anorexic patients advice on calorie restriction, which was definitely not the original intention, and because it got positive responses from users, it started doing it more and more until it was essentially a pro-ana bot and had to be turned off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ced2ywg7246o.amp

Yep, always learning.

Many, MANY therapists out there. Most of them making pocket money at best, in private practice. Tonnes of us. It's a popular degree (or diploma or whatever). A lot of women people are attracted to it because it is something we like to do, especially when we've been through horrific life circumstances, we like to help. Another element to it-a lot of therapists have their own vulnerabilities which makes my 'MLM/cult' metaphor more concerning.

You have to pay quite a lot of money to advertise, to retain membership to a body, to have supervision-some months I have spent all of what I have earned on such things and going by posts in fb groups for counselors, I am far from alone.

Then said bodies keep adding more and more things you have to do (and pay for) to stay relevant. More studying, more time, more stress.

Jobs as in PAYE jobs are few and far between and often require accreditation rather than 'just' to be qualified. More money, time and stress-compare this to any other profession where in many of them once you're qualified, you're qualified and can go into your profession-not usually possible. A huge element of 'Two years experience required' even if the job does 'just' require qualification-how the chuff do you get that when nobody will employ you? Oh yes-volunteering with an organisation-because we can all afford to work for nothing and spend our time on it for 2-3 years just to get the privilege of being able to work in a profession we've already worked damn hard for. Or we can go into private practice-competing against 5 million others who have the same idea-all paying ££££ for advertising and software etc etc.

Getting the MLM vibe yet?

And I will say, off topic slightly but the diploma is HARD, I can imagine the degree is even harder-and I have an MA-I would honestly do my MA another 6 times than ever set foot in a trainee counsellor's shoes again. Almost gave me a nervous breakdown-I saw so many people drop out due to the stress-it was very hard. One woman who was the most level-headed and lovely person one could encounter, ended up on anti-deprassants by the end of it and we all collaborated to sue the college. I am the only one who actually went ahead with that, and they settled with giving me half of my money back.

More and more things brought in all the time that you have to work at and it makes me very sad when I see posts in aforementioned groups 'why am I not getting any clients? I am on (insert popular directory) and on this and that and I paid £££ for my website-is my website okay? Is it because I am not smiling wide enough in my picture?'

No love, It's because there are zillions in the same boat, most people who need therapy can't afford to pay your (perfectly reasonable for how hard you've worked) prices and will go through the NHS or a voluntary organisation or just not bother.

I am 'lucky' in that I found an organisation to work for who are reasonable and pay what I am FAR overqualified for, but enough. I do this four days a week, a few private clients but it is disheartening given how much work I have put in and how passionate I used to be about giving people that connection and my skills. I taught it for a while, and loved it but the organisation went bust and of course given what this thread is about and all of the above, I am not holding my breath about another teaching position.

I want out.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. As you were.

I would suggest that you have had bad experiences of therapy and don't know much about it, which are almost certainly related.

Exactly this.
It shouldn't be used for any human health issue unless it's under professional supervison

The world of counselling needs regulating, properly. I am a counsellor and I fail to see how AI can connect at a deeper level, when I am with a client I feel what they feel (but stay regulated). AI could never do that. I don’t remember everything a client tells me, but I remember and notice what’s important.

I am sorry you have had a poor experience of human therapy, I hope I help most of my clients.

I was just talking about this on another thread. I'm a sociologist and I'm really concerned with its potential impact on the way humans relate to each other. People think it listens, but it doesn't listen. It affirms what you say and confirms your biases and perceptions. If that's what people want from it...I don't know. Maybe that's helpful. I don't want to criticise anyone who thinks its supporting them, particularly if they don't have other options. But its definitely not listening or therapy.